Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
You go to front of the "first to go" list. Sometimes I thinking "culling the herd" will be easy.
Obvious humor aside, technology is what caused us to exceed our limits so soon. Didn't you read the Tragedy of the Commons? There are no techno-fixes for this
You obviously have something against the human race if you refer to it as a herd and think it needs to be culled. I suppose you think you should be the guy chosing who dies then eh? And obviously you wouldn't be one of the unlucky ones who have to die .... thought so.
How do you know there are no techno fixes for this? You got a crystal ball there? Going on thousands of years of human progress, I would say its a pretty good bet to say we'll keep advancing in general, but with small blips on the way. Peak oil is a blip which will cause a worldwide recession for a decade. In that period, public works programs and new tech will allow us to swich away from oil for transport purposes and to save it for important things such as medicines and fertilizers.
I do find it absolutely hilarious how people that blame everything on technology use pieces of technology every day and depend on them for their lives. It is so funny. Montequest - i presume you live in some sort of wig wam and you somehow managed to telepathically connect to the internet through a foil radar placed on your head? How could you be posting here? Do you have a pc made out of wood and clay?
Obviously, you have no sense of humor. Are we overpopulated? Yes. Do we need to reduce our numbers? Yes. I have nothing against the human race. My use of the "culling of the herd" metaphor is to show that we are no different than any other animal when it comes to it's carrying capacity.
We are already making choices about who will live and who will die. Nature makes fair choices, we just need to mimic her. It's like I said, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You have to choose. Give up the ability to save everyone we can, or give up the ability to breed without restraint. You can't have both forever.
If you had read Tragedy of the Commons, you would see why their is no techno-fix for population growth.
And your straw man won't fly. This was the world I was born into. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Dec 20, 2004 Posts: 890 Location: Scotland
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:40 am Post subject:
Quote:
Lin decides to have one more kid cause she can afford it => Increase in Lin's household energy consumption => increase in the consumption of fossil fuels => more CO2 in the atmosphere => melting of polar ice => Gulf Stream Shuts down (scenarion published in Science 9 January 2004; 303: 176-177 [DOI: 10.1126/science.1094329] ) =>Northern Europe and Scotland covered in 1/2 mile of ice => destruction of agriculture => no food => Lin's kids are eaten by Lin, or eat each other or all of them are eaten by strangers (Ukraine famine in 1940s plenty of evidence).
I surely hope Lin that whoever eats your children is not sadistic and eats you first before you see your own children eaten raped or turtured prior to their being BBQed (people are gonna be pissed that they lack their reality shows and will want to "play" with their food). If you have a cute daughter or son she or he might be kept for sex or energy slave or both.
Have a nice day and go consume and breed (the penultimate consumption).... you have condemned your children to death
I think you've taken leave of your senses. By the way, i'm not a she im a he. I take exception to you talking about my children in those terms - please dont do it again, or i'll lodge a formal complaint against you. By all means abuse me all you like, but do not even say one more word about my children, who are the focal point of my life and my reason for living.
I have no idea why you think we'll be resorting to cannabilsm any time soon - you really are off your head if you think that is going to happen. You think peak oil is going to be an overnight thing, with people waking up one morning and becoming cannibals? Get a grip of yourself.
Peak oil is a temporary problem which, in my opinion, will result in a decade long period of global recession and energy problems/blackouts. In this period, the switch to nuclear, renewables and massive conservation through government intervention will lead us on to a bright future, where oil is used for chemicals, medicines and fertilizers only and is not burned up in inefficient petrol engines etc.
You think that once peak oil hits, the world as we know it ends. I think you are very, very wrong on that point, and so do most other people who have looked into this issue. Deffeys also thinks this way - a period of turbulence and problems - a decade or more - during which countries will scramble to secure their energy independence and largely succeed.
I'd sell my house right now, sure - i rent and refuse to buy even though i could. Im paying down debt also and i dont buy useless crap.
I also refute your logic that having more children uses more resources. In a previous post i said the following:-
If my wife and i had zero children, she'd be working and we'd have a huge amount of spare cash and probably another car. We'd spend all this extra cash on stuff we didnt need, go on holidays twice a year etc etc. I maintain that we'd use MORE resources as a DINKY couple (double income no kids yet) than as at present, where we get by ok on my wage, my wife stays home and looks after the children and we have an old car and dont go on foreign holidays etc.
I bet your average single rich professional type uses more energy than my entire family, taking into account the average lifestyle of such a person.
Joined: Dec 20, 2004 Posts: 890 Location: Scotland
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:46 am Post subject:
Quote:
Obviously, you have no sense of humor. Are we overpopulated? Yes. Do we need to reduce our numbers? Yes. I have nothing against the human race. My use of the "culling of the herd" metaphor is to show that we are no different than any other animal when it comes to it's carrying capacity
I have a great sense of humour, unlike many people on here who treat 'die-off' as their bible and won't hear a word against it, which i find baffling in the extreme.
I accept peak oil - its real and its almost here (before 2015 is my guess). I dont accept its the end of the human race as we know it though. I also dont accept that techno fixes wont work. They've worked up until now, so why shouldn't they work this time?
I also think that EROEI is useless. All that appears to matter is money. No matter how much people argue over EROEI - especially in oil shales etc. - they are profitable, and they do work, even though they supposedly have a very poor EROEI. Oil shales are the next big thing in the oil world - together with gas to liquids.
Its not the End of Oil - its the end of conventional oil. You never know, the end of conventional oil might be the best thing the world needs to force it into confronting serious energy issues that have so far been ignored because there was just far too much cheap oil around to take any action.
Lin decides to have one more kid cause she can afford it => Increase in Lin's household energy consumption => increase in the consumption of fossil fuels => more CO2 in the atmosphere => melting of polar ice => Gulf Stream Shuts down (scenarion published in Science 9 January 2004; 303: 176-177 [DOI: 10.1126/science.1094329] ) =>Northern Europe and Scotland covered in 1/2 mile of ice => destruction of agriculture => no food => Lin's kids are eaten by Lin, or eat each other or all of them are eaten by strangers (Ukraine famine in 1940s plenty of evidence).
I surely hope Lin that whoever eats your children is not sadistic and eats you first before you see your own children eaten raped or turtured prior to their being BBQed (people are gonna be pissed that they lack their reality shows and will want to "play" with their food). If you have a cute daughter or son she or he might be kept for sex or energy slave or both.
Have a nice day and go consume and breed (the penultimate consumption).... you have condemned your children to death
I think you've taken leave of your senses. By the way, i'm not a she im a he. I take exception to you talking about my children in those terms - please dont do it again, or i'll lodge a formal complaint against you. By all means abuse me all you like, but do not even say one more word about my children, who are the focal point of my life and my reason for living.
I have no idea why you think we'll be resorting to cannabilsm any time soon - you really are off your head if you think that is going to happen. You think peak oil is going to be an overnight thing, with people waking up one morning and becoming cannibals? Get a grip of yourself.
Peak oil is a temporary problem which, in my opinion, will result in a decade long period of global recession and energy problems/blackouts. In this period, the switch to nuclear, renewables and massive conservation through government intervention will lead us on to a bright future, where oil is used for chemicals, medicines and fertilizers only and is not burned up in inefficient petrol engines etc.
You think that once peak oil hits, the world as we know it ends. I think you are very, very wrong on that point, and so do most other people who have looked into this issue. Deffeys also thinks this way - a period of turbulence and problems - a decade or more - during which countries will scramble to secure their energy independence and largely succeed.
I'd sell my house right now, sure - i rent and refuse to buy even though i could. Im paying down debt also and i dont buy useless crap.
I also refute your logic that having more children uses more resources. In a previous post i said the following:-
If my wife and i had zero children, she'd be working and we'd have a huge amount of spare cash and probably another car. We'd spend all this extra cash on stuff we didnt need, go on holidays twice a year etc etc. I maintain that we'd use MORE resources as a DINKY couple (double income no kids yet) than as at present, where we get by ok on my wage, my wife stays home and looks after the children and we have an old car and dont go on foreign holidays etc.
I bet your average single rich professional type uses more energy than my entire family, taking into account the average lifestyle of such a person.
I apologise for the wrong gender.
Read my post carefully - It was about Global Warming and the burning of fossil fuels. PO (which I think it is now or in the next 2-3 years) or not PO (which you do not subscribe) burning the fossil fuels is a key issue.
So you think cannibalism with wide spread famine is not possible hm?
Remember Shawney Beane? or more recently:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3229000.stm
Happened in Ukraine 60 years ago ... and the famine was not an overnight thing but they ended up eating each other. A new ice age or a planet Venus scenario will be much much worse than that (even though food production decline will be seen with PO) . So it is at least thinkable if it has happened dont you think? And my profession makes me uniquely aware of what people can do .... so I have valid reasons to think that this may happen again as it happened in the past (including the hunter gatherer past) .
In terms of resource consumption: the moment your kid becomes an adult he or she will need more resources .... no problem when they are still school age. Will you do the noble thing and commit seppuku to maintain the drain of resources at a constant level?
My rich professional lifestyle as you call it, consists of a 45K/yr salary since I made the choice to pursue different levels of training instead of going out there and consume (I'm in my 8th year of training and I have another 4-5 years to do, including postdoc, research etc) . I have friends who make 250K-450K a year but this is not my raw model, please tell them to cut back on their rich professional life because they are not listening to me
I own two computers and a Ford Focus which I gave it to my parents and brother when GW and PO realization hit me to prevent them from buying another car. And to make up for my flights when I interviewed for a job I will have to maintain a vegetarian diet for 2-3 years (that's actually good news for my health).
So if your kids are the focal point of your life, do think about them and please do not advocate for everyone to breed like rabbits. I apologise If I shocked you ... but you are of the people who think that there is a (?divine) guarantee that the future will always be like the present and no other future is possible. My reading of history made me believe that without active participation and a modest cut back in consumption a deep regression of civilization is highly probable. Have a nice day _________________ "Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
This is soo ignorant ... the equations of physics are written in terms of energy not money. Do we have any scientific background?
Quote:
Oil shales are the next big thing in the oil world - together with gas to liquids.
Quote:
Its not the End of Oil - its the end of conventional oil. You never know, the end of conventional oil might be the best thing the world needs to force it into confronting serious energy issues that have so far been ignored because there was just far too much cheap oil around to take any action.
We do not seem to care about the environment right?
In addition how is the end of cheap oil going to make us shift to other forms of energy that are environmentally bening ; tar sands GTL are hydrocarbon based fuels and they have to be phased out. In addition the flow of these fuels is going to be much slower than simply sticking a straw in the ground.
For someone who does not accept the end of humanity (one point we agree ) you are in favour of measures that will pretty much guarantee that humanity does not have a future _________________ "Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
How do you know there are no techno fixes for this? You got a crystal ball there? Going on thousands of years of human progress, I would say its a pretty good bet to say we'll keep advancing in general, but with small blips on the way. Peak oil is a blip which will cause a worldwide recession for a decade. In that period, public works programs and new tech will allow us to swich away from oil for transport purposes and to save it for important things such as medicines and fertilizers.
What is this new technology that you expect to bail us out? Do you know where "new technology" comes from? Also going on thousands of years of human progress, the rate of advancements wasn't anything spectacular until the advent of modern scientific thinking around 300 years ago. Modern humans have been on earth for at least 500,000. All of the "new tech" that has been developed has been a result of scientific research and industrialism, which is itself a result of temporary energy abundance and unsustainable resource extraction. As a side note, in a finite world, any rate of resource extraction is unsustainable. The point is that "new tech" and "advancing in general" are results of industrialism (i.e. oil) and that they will go down with it.
Quote:
Ooohhh.. that is sooo good. You actually typed that on a piece of advanced computer technology, do you realise the irony there? I can see you now - in your modern house surrounded by technology, tv's, radios, appliances and heated and powered by a technological marvel - a national grid system, sitting there saying 'I Hate technology!' whilst popping a ready meal in the microwave and flipping your kettle on to make some coffee! Very Happy Please, feel free to live under a bush technology free! I just dont think you've thought your position out on technology very well. You either have technology or you dont. You cant just stop somewhere in the middle and say 'that tech is good, but no further'. Its all the way or nothing.
This is completely irrelevant and without logic. We all like technology, it's just that some of us can see the bigger picture and realize that it is in no way sustainable and that we cannot continue to live with it, whether we like it or not. I also agree that the internet will be around in 20 years. You can't uninvent things once they have been invented, but you can lack the means to implement them. Let's take this piece of "advanced computer technlogy" that I am typing on as an example. It's mass produced in China. Mass production is a result of abundant energy and resources (oil). I live in Canada. This thing left China on an oil-powered boat, was then unloaded and put on an oil-powered truck, or maybe an oil-powered train. The truck drove here on a road made of asphalt(oil!). I now examine it's construction. At first glance, it is apparent that it is made of plastic to a great extent. Plastic is made of oil. Inside it's full of silicon. Silicon is relatively abundant, but do you have any idea how much energy is required to refine it into a grade that can be used in a computer? In 20 years we will still be making computers, but at what cost? Expensive oil and energy affect every step of manufacturing and bringing this technology to me.
I guess my main point is that you need to wake up and see the big picture. The "real" world that we see of your job at a corporation, your car, bank account, supermarket, etc is very much artificially constructed and not the real world at all. We are cheating nature by overshooting the carrying capacity of this planet, extending people's lives by the use of medicine and creating machines that do our work for us. In the long run, nature always wins. To steal a quote from Matt Savinar, "Deal With Reality or Reality Will Deal With You".
The fact is, the 'die off brigade’ has never presented any real evidence for die off, frequently ignoring all the evidence points to rich people are the ones that use the oil and spend the money of fuel intensive activities (Frequent flights, 2 or more cars, more waste). Rich people will be the first to buy renewable energy. This has everything to do with price and nothing to do with birth.
The die off camp are frequently anti capitalist, anti human and fail to take into account renewable energy and nuclear technology was not available or available in the same way pre 1750. Most people get by on this planet with very little energy. This is a problem for those that do use energy in a shameful and wasteful manner. People get richer, they don't walk, and they buy cars. It's not rocket science and it does not mean the end of life - in fact a longer life if you take into account the health benefits of cycling/walking.
It’s clear that many of the ‘die off brigade’ is spouting nonsense as an ego boost or as an excuse for war. If you want this subject to be taken seriously then drop it. Most of the world’s problems are caused by over inflated egos, don’t become the next zealots.
I surely hope Lin that whoever eats your children is not sadistic and eats you first before you see your own children eaten raped or turtured prior to their being BBQed (people are gonna be pissed that they lack their reality shows and will want to "play" with their food). If you have a cute daughter or son she or he might be kept for sex or energy slave or both.
Have a nice day and go consume and breed (the penultimate consumption).... you have condemned your children to death
Are you some kind of pervert? This is extremely offensive, and not what I came here to read.
The fact is, the 'die off brigade’ has never presented any real evidence for die off, frequently ignoring all the evidence points to rich people are the ones that use the oil and spend the money of fuel intensive activities (Frequent flights, 2 or more cars, more waste). Rich people will be the first to buy renewable energy. This has everything to do with price and nothing to do with birth.
The die off camp are frequently anti capitalist, anti human and fail to take into account renewable energy and nuclear technology was not available or available in the same way pre 1750. Most people get by on this planet with very little energy. This is a problem for those that do use energy in a shameful and wasteful manner. People get richer, they don't walk, and they buy cars. It's not rocket science and it does not mean the end of life - in fact a longer life if you take into account the health benefits of cycling/walking.
It’s clear that many of the ‘die off brigade’ is spouting nonsense as an ego boost or as an excuse for war. If you want this subject to be taken seriously then drop it. Most of the world’s problems are caused by over inflated egos, don’t become the next zealots.
Yes but it is the people who do not subscribe to the die-off that make everything they can to make sure that die-off happens. Anti-capitalistic is pro-human. And yes if the market is let to run its course the rich people will have electricity and the poor people will die. Die-off is at least thinkable .. especially in the context of environmental change, don't you think? But it will be environmental disaster AND lack of energy to mitigate the decline in food production that will lead to die-off. By exorcising the devil we simply invite him to hit us harder. _________________ "Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
I surely hope Lin that whoever eats your children is not sadistic and eats you first before you see your own children eaten raped or turtured prior to their being BBQed (people are gonna be pissed that they lack their reality shows and will want to "play" with their food). If you have a cute daughter or son she or he might be kept for sex or energy slave or both.
Have a nice day and go consume and breed (the penultimate consumption).... you have condemned your children to death
Are you some kind of pervert? This is extremely offensive, and not what I came here to read.
JD I'm not some kind of pervert ... please read extremely carefully the post. Follow the logic and read the historical links. If it has happened it is at least possible! _________________ "Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
Peak oil is a temporary problem which, in my opinion, will result in a decade long period of global recession and energy problems/blackouts. In this period, the switch to nuclear, renewables and massive conservation through government intervention will lead us on to a bright future...
You have faith and I can see why. So much is already being done to prepare for what MOST experts believe inevitable. Have you read the Hirsch report? It suggests we need to begin at least a decade BEFORE peak oil to avoid disaster. He seems to think the future may not be so bright, because we are currently unprepared. Maybe your hope in your children's future is skewing your vision?
Quote:
Deffeys also thinks this way - a period of turbulence and problems - a decade or more - during which countries will scramble to secure their energy independence and largely succeed
And why do you assume your family will survive or be immune to the turbulence. You assume to make it to the bright, utopian future. Assuming we solve the energy problems, how do you intend to feed your
ever-increasing population? You do know we are running out of topsoil right? The excess food now will diminish without fertile soil. What about decreasing fresh water?
Quote:
i really do think its futile to rail against reproduction though. you are angry about the very thing that allowed you to exist and enter posts on here - that is very amusing to me - dont you guys see the irony and stupidity there?
life is a gift and a miracle.
Your 'unlimited babies for all' doesn't work on a finite planet capable of only supporting so much life. Life IS a miracle. Most are just asking for you to enjoy fewer of them in order to sustain a healthy world. If we curb reproduction, we inevitably have a 'dieoff' of population from where the world is now. That is a good thing IMHO as the planet is grossly overpopulated. I know that goes against your beliefs, my guessing influenced by strict religion, but understand it is for the betterment of the environment. Yes some opinions go 'over the top' to get their point across, but in essense the goal is the same.
I also think that EROEI is useless. All that appears to matter is money. No matter how much people argue over EROEI - especially in oil shales etc. - they are profitable, and they do work, even though they supposedly have a very poor EROEI. Oil shales are the next big thing in the oil world - together with gas to liquids.
This is not a difficult concept. If you can only think in terms of money, think of it this way. The oil producer stays in business because they make a profit by selling a barrel of oil for more than it cost to extract. Some of their overhead is energy. If they have to burn more than one barrel of oil for energy in order to get one barrel of oil out of the ground (or to make a barrel of shale oil),then their overhead is higher than the price of the barrel, and they would be better off just selling that barrel of oil instead of using it for energy. Thus they are no longer a producer.
The fact is, the 'die off brigade’ has never presented any real evidence for die off, frequently ignoring all the evidence points to rich people are the ones that use the oil and spend the money of fuel intensive activities (Frequent flights, 2 or more cars, more waste). Rich people will be the first to buy renewable energy. This has everything to do with price and nothing to do with birth.
The die off camp are frequently anti capitalist, anti human and fail to take into account renewable energy and nuclear technology was not available or available in the same way pre 1750. Most people get by on this planet with very little energy. This is a problem for those that do use energy in a shameful and wasteful manner. People get richer, they don't walk, and they buy cars. It's not rocket science and it does not mean the end of life - in fact a longer life if you take into account the health benefits of cycling/walking.
It’s clear that many of the ‘die off brigade’ is spouting nonsense as an ego boost or as an excuse for war. If you want this subject to be taken seriously then drop it. Most of the world’s problems are caused by over inflated egos, don’t become the next zealots.
Yes but it is the people who do not subscribe to the die-off that make everything they can to make sure that die-off happens. Anti-capitalistic is pro-human. And yes if the market is let to run its course the rich people will have electricity and the poor people will die. Die-off is at least thinkable .. especially in the context of environmental change, don't you think? But it will be environmental disaster AND lack of energy to mitigate the decline in food production that will lead to die-off. By exorcising the devil we simply invite him to hit us harder.
Rich people will have electricity and poor people will die off? It won’t happen. I’ll tell you why - the poor people will rebel, go on strike, commit crime and get involved in terrorist activities. Everything is inter-linked, nobody can isolate themselves from it. This is how democracy was formed – it wasn’t given as a gift. There’s no doubt at all the world is heading in the wrong direction, most people on these forums accept that, but personal decisions and education can help a lot. Personally, I never fly or intend to, I don’t own a car and my next one will be electric. Yes there are problems, there is a need to shift to renewable energy, but when people talk about capitalist they forget they are in the consumer club themselves, some of which has benefits for the human race, some of which doesn’t. Like the internet, one could make a damn good case for closing it all down tomorrow to stop terrorism, immigration, spread of disease and globalisation. But this is the real world and it needs a sensible solution not a destructive one.
Oh yeah? Then what was all that pedophile stuff, about rape, torture and child sex slaves? If you're into that kind of thing, you should keep it to yourself. This board is for people who want to talk about peak oil.
Oh yeah? Then what was all that pedophile stuff, about rape, torture and child sex slaves? If you're into that kind of thing, you should keep it to yourself. This board is for people who want to talk about peak oil.
The site is about PO and whether it will lead to societal regression.
If our industrial civilization dies ... then we go back to the stone age.
Do you agree with that?
If you agree then ... all those things will come back.
Do I need to remind people about slavery, the Middle Ages, feudalism, the famine in Ukraine, India in the 17th century, Europe in the 14th century?
I apologise if you were offended; but I do see the educational value of remembering what the past was like and how we can avoid it.
I retract my comments .... but I urge everyone to read their history books.
And JD ... the ultimate perversion is to talk about how we can burn more stuff when the world climate is changing. US military declared world climate change a worse enemy than terrorism. So go figure _________________ "Nuclear power has long been to the Left what embryonic-stem-cell research is to the Right--irredeemably wrong and a signifier of moral weakness."Esquire Magazine,12/05
The genetic code is commaless and so are my posts.
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
