Hi,
I wonder about all the folks talking about setting up their piece in the country, all ready for anything. I don't think it will work that way. A self sufficient farm takes a lot of infrastructure, skills, and energy to run! Does anybody expect to quit a job and startup an enterprise like this?

The list of tools you need numbers in the hundreds (plus spares and maintenaince). The list of food stocks (seeds, animals), maybe 100 or so. What about reliable water, fuel? What about security, if things are that bad (which I don't believe is likely), your biggest danger is the two legged type. Can you and your family work all day and guard all night?

Yes, energy costs will escalate. We will (actually are already but it's not as obvious as it could be) be in a long period of stagflation. Communities will grow stronger. But everybody can't homestead, nor should it be necessary. Instead we'll have a long winding down, where the basics will finally be more important than your cell phone. As it should be.

Blech

I guess I'm not sure I'm understanding your comment "I don't think it will work that way."

People are actually doing this, not just talking about it. KillJoy is nearly self sufficient with a farm he shares with his partner. He still works an off-farm job (teacher) but raises a lot of his own food. Pops is starting a farm, only about a year out and he's already producing a large percentage of his own food plus selling some. He works part-time (graphic designer). I'm developing a permaculture homestead with my husband. We work a part-time home business (motion picture props). Currently producing about 15% of our food needs this first year of serious effort. CarlinsDarlin is developing a small farm and produces a large part of her food needs plus sells some; her husband works an off-farm job.

So, we didn't quit our jobs to start these enterprises, they are part of our way of life now, integrated with our jobs.

That "nearly" is the devil.

One thing you learn is that, as blech says, "self-sufficiency" is entirely a mythical concept.

Even Thoreau mooched off Emerson while living in his cabin in the woods.

We rely entirely on others who make and maintain tools; grow seed stock; produce all the fuels & lubes for our equipement; etc etc.

It's important not to delude ourselves that we'll somehow escape the effects of peak oil. The best we can do is stack as many metaphorical sand bags as we can to minimize the impact, which to me means learning to live WITHOUT amenities like an electric clothes drier, etc., and to learn to produce as much as you can by hand to avoid the coming soaring prices of things.

Hi Ludi,
I admire your doing it, and frankly, if I was able to I'd likely do it myself, if for no other reason farming is in my family and I entertain the notion of being one myself. My point is that true self sufficiency doesn't work. Let me try it this way. Imagine the moon had climate and good dirt and water. I magically put your farm on it, as your farm stands today. How long do you last?

Blech

killJOY said it well.

Peak oil will (I hope and expect) raise the importance of farming, back to where it has been for all of human history. But pretending we can each live in our own island has to stop, as it won't work anyhow.

Blech

Blech,
You are right, it is nearly impossible in this day and age to be completely self-sufficient - but then, it always has been. Frontier families in the early days of the United States may be good examples, but even they traded on occasion with others. That being said, doesn't it make sense to be as self-reliant as possible? Especially in light of what we may have to deal with in the future? I certainly feel more comfortable knowing that we can provide much for of our needs.

You are also right that setting up such a homestead is not something that can be done overnight, at the drop of a hat. We're barely in the beginning stages ourselves - it takes time, resources/money, patience, and lots of learning from mistakes before you get it right. That's why if you plan to do it, NOW is the time to start.

Dropping Ludi (or any of us ) on the moon isn't a fair analogy. When one chooses to homestead, the first and most important consideration, much like in real estate in general - is location, location, location. You have to start out with a place that is conducive to homesteading. A place that provides resources that you'll need in order to live. A diamond in the rough, as it were. Only then, can you begin building the infrastructure necessary to survive.

No, the lifestyle is not for everyone. There are other means of preparing that may well be better. I don't know. What I do know is that this arrangement is best for me. I hope you find what is best for you.

And, after I typed all this - I realized that killjoy had summed it up perfectly and I didn't need to



Kathy

Hi Kathy,
Your absolutely right - and I think you have the right attitude. I'm writing mostly to the doomsayers, and people who think they are screwed because they happen to live in a city, in an apartment, or whatever. If you have the means and interest in farming, then go ahead. It's likely a growth industry in the future.

My wife and I have kicked the idea around, but have finally rejected it. There's a lot of weird people out in the country around here, and it takes a lot to make it work anyhow (don't even talk about water rights). As energy becomes tight this will become more true. Maybe the U.S. (for example) will go to super effiient mega farms, even bigger than before. It doesn't cost much energy to transport tons of foodstuffs by rail.

Blech

Oh none of us pretend to be truly self-sufficient, we just forget to always put "self-sufficient" in quotes.

Hi Blech.

Self-sufficiency is, like any thing else a matter of degrees and not limited to those living in the country – just eliminating a huge cc balance to become less dependant on a paycheck is a good example.

Read through the Assessments and Plans thread and back through the old threads for other ideas; there are as many ways to plan, as there are people and places to live.

If you don’t see a topic that fits your situation then post it up! You know we’ll all have an opinion!


Now I got to go to the feed store...

Try reading 'How to Grow More Vegetables Than You Ever Thought Possible on Less Land.....'-Jeavons

It may give you a better sense of the possibilities on becoming self-sufficient with your mini-farm. They show you methods on how to ready the soil and to get yields of 2-6 times (in some cases 30 times) greater than US agriculture does currently. This is on MUCH LESS land than needed by US farmers., not to mention less water and fertilizer. This is doable by hand, not needing machines.

If you are speaking of soloing a standard commercial US farm, then I would agree, it is too much to ask of one person. You will inevitably come to rely on others.

For myself, I am working on/envision purchasing about 30-40 acres, at least 50% wooded if possible. From there I work on rejuvenating the farmable areas first using Biointensive techniques I am studying. My goal is to have alot of extra choice farmland if needed and to get my wooded lot to 70-80% of my property. (My own little part to start healing Mother Nature.) My 6-12 acres of farmland (260,000-520,000 sq ft) is more than enough to feed a small community, let alone my family. With sustainable, Biointensive farming, this land area could feed 65-130 people. My thinking is 65 people could handle farming 6 acres without machines. All the while, my farm will be using less water, fertilizer and energy on less land WHILE improving the soil and the yields from it.

Check out that book if you haven't. It is a GREAT philosophy and a great read.

I have noticed this common theme here. Those who feel as though they'd rather not bother doing anything denigrate the efforts of those that feel they rather would do something by stating how impossible it is. It appears even more commonly among people who have just registered to this site and apparently have no other posts except those protecting and justifying their position. Variations on this same thread run from time to time:

Useless land and farms

I have heard very few here (link me some posts if I'm wrong) say they're planning on becoming a hermit and doing it all themselves. Most ideas I have seen, if they even get this specific, revolve around families and close friends or very small communities. If these things aren't self sufficient, how in the hell did we manage to survive long enough to put 6 billion of us on the earth? Many, many years ago, people lived in very small enclaves. Even as recently as 100-200 years ago you had single family homesteaders who survived largely alone out West. The idea that we all need large numbers of people around us to survive is ridiculous, because it goes against the reality of the majority of human existence. In my opinion, what is really going on in those that steadfastly claim otherwise is a fear of not having the skillset or mindset to be able to survive or help their families survive. How did Alexander Selkirk (the real Robinson Crusoe) survive for 4 years on a tiny, uninhabited island? Maybe God traded him some hand tools?

Furthermore, as Pops has stated, there are degrees of sufficiency. If you get out of debt, you have incurred some degree of self-sufficiency. Grow your own food? Even more. Make some power? Even more.

The fact of the matter is that nobody really knows what's going to happen. That means we all have to speculate to some extent. I personally prefer to speculate that I need to worry about taking care of myself and my family if the whole thing disintegrates, rather than speculate that Good Ol' Uncle Sam is going to truck me in some beans & taters. I personally prefer that more people believe the latter, because if the SHTF in that way those people will most assuredly be dead before me & mine. If you prefer to believe that, good for you. But please don't denigrate those who are doing their own work & preparation as they see fit. This forum is called "planning for the future", not "disavow those planning for the future".

Hi jdmartin,
I hope I didn't give the impression that I'm too lazy to farm (I commented that I would like to do so, and I come from that background), or that I am denigrating the efforts of others to do so (I've also stated that I think it's a good idea to become self sufficient as possible and support those who can and do). Please read carefully.

We agree, and you stated my premise more clearly than I did. Which is that absolute self-sufficiency doesn't exist, but we all have relative degrees of such.

Blech

Final note, I do disagree that everybody on these forums takes the moderate view as we (and Pops, killJOY etc.) do. Look at some of the posting headings

List of survival materials for the post oil situation
Rural Apartment-Dwellers - What To Do?
What is a good enough quality of life, anyway?

I see the phrase "When TSHTF" (such as in the apartment dwellers thread) far too often. Weathering these storms calls for moderation, something we certainly haven't seen the last century.

Blech

But then you write things like this:



...in essence criticizing those who ARE preparing. Moderation is different for everyone. A person who owns a 4000 sq ft home and drives a Hummer may consider moderation trading in that vehicle for an Explorer. To someone already driving a Hybrid vehicle, moderation could be installing solar panels on their home. Who is doing more to help the cause?



This doesn't sound like you are taking a moderate view to me. Again differing views? More likely, you are hoping that technology saves the day and that we have forever and a day to deal with it. Many people on here would like to be a little more prepared and less dependent on an oil-loving, environmentally unfriendly government to save the day. If anything, people are realizing there is more to life than the rat race we are led to believe we want. Preparation allows people to be ready, just in case, but also to realize more about themselves.

OH YEAH, wasn't this your first post?



Seems like you are all over the road instead of down the middle.

I think sites like Life After… and certainly lots of posters here (myself included on odd numbered days LOL) envision overnight catastrophe or at least use that scenario for the shock value to get the point across that this isn’t a small matter. It seems natural the knee-jerk reaction is to freak out!

Like I said before there is every imaginable plan for coping as well as the whole spectrum of reactions to the possibility of PO – each depends on the experiences, capabilities, world view, etc. of the viewer. No one is prevented from posting their views here if they follow the rules of the board and so I don’t find it surprising there are differing views – it is encouraged.

Anyway all this has been hashed out over and over… check out the old threads.

Bottom line – you pays yer money and you takes yer chances.