Interesting, Ludi. Virginia and Texas are two different planets, I guess. (I'm amazed that you can grow a cool-weather crop like beets in Texas!) I have a patch of thriving turnips about ready for pulling. Very little bug damage. We had the driest September in history here, and August was awfully dry too. (I did a lot of watering.) Big rains lately (seven inches).

My beet seedlings keep wanting to fall over---the stems are narrow and weak. I try piling soil or mulch around them and this helps some. But the plants are slow-growing and tend to get annihilated by grasshoppers. Maybe my soil is deficient in something beets need.

"As someone who lives on a farm, Daryl, I take offense at your assertion that people in rural places will not have "much of a chance." Only a suburbanite could hold such a view. As far as I'm concerned, "suburban" and "post-collapse survival" are mutually contradictory.

And what makes you think your suburban fortress is any less subject to attack than my country one?"


Let me try to clarify.

If you are already residing in a rural or remote area, surely your chances of survival are much better that anyone in the suburbs. My comment about rural/wilderness people needing a fortress is just an observation that if there is no rule of law, then all bets are off for safety no matter where you are. The people with the least chance of survival are those within the urban centers. You're odds automatically increase as the population density decreases. The intent of the comment I made was that it is unrealistic for a suburbanite to plan to give up suburbia in a total crisis and somehow transition to a safe rural life where all their needs are met. 1) they don't have the supplies or skills, 2) I believe the highways and roads will be chock a block with starving bandits 3) Even if they surmounted those obstacles "the land" can only support a small fraction of our current population living as farmers or hunter-gatherers.

I trying to speculate about what my best short term course of action is in a major city/greater metro area environment. I think my suburban house is at great risk, but I think hiding there is still my best option. As a suburbanite, I don't think I have a long term option except hoping the grid and rule of law is restored.

Thanks, Daryl, for this clarification.

If you are truly convinced that such a catastrophe is likely, it might make sense to try, somehow, to make a transition to a more rural lifestyle now. Certainly there are risks in the country too; it's not by itself the answer to the survival problem.

You don't have to live in the total boonies. Consider a country place a few miles out from a good-sized town.

I strongly recommend to you the following book: "Crisis Preparedness Handbook: A Comprehensive Guide to Home Storage and Physical Survival," by Jack Spigarelli. I bought my copy from Amazon about a year ago; it's inexpensive.

Good luck!

Another view of the situation would be,who are my neighbors,what do they know,and how long before they start creeping around my place looking to mooch.
Its more than likely,that you will be the only one on your block,or one of a handful,<less than ten>in your neighborhood,who will be prepared to deal with a crisis.
Now a cold hungry man,with a cold hungry family at home,will do many things.
So I can understand the logic in the post by Seahorse about the fire extinguishers and evac plans,because they might try and smoke you out to get to your food and then use your house as firewood.

Now if you think this cant happen,stick your head out the window look up and down the street and reevaluate your situation.
Maybe its a good idea to buy 150 days of food,so you can have 90 for yourself ?
I can see it now,your freezing hungry neighbor across the street planning with his freezing hungry neighbor next door on when everyone is gone from your house and they are going to raid YOUR food supplies.

Plan all you want,but if you havent planned for this in suburbia,you havent planned.

Not everyone has the financial means to relocate and build up a rural homestead. I think I and my girlfriend will barely be able to do it, and even then it won't be in the most optimal farming area.

What you can do and which and how much in the way of supplies you can acquire will depend on your current financial situation. Our aim is not to have 90 days of food and water, but more like two years. I think the grid will eventually come to a point where it begins a continuous downward spiral. It won't recover in 90 days. I think it'll take decades to build up a new source of energy and requisite infrastucture.

I think everyone is being far too pessimistic about the security of suburban homes. Suburban marauders will quickly find they are more likely to encounter armed and wary homeowners than useful supplies. The careers of those who persist will be quite short.
The safest place to be during times of unrest will be in your suburban home that appears to be just like all of those that surround it, rather than anywhere near big box stores and public places where the desperate will congregate.

Suburbia could be survivable if your house "appears to be just like all of those that surround it" but packed with >6 months supplies and concealed rainwater capture (put a fence around your house-colored rainbarrel, where the trashcans just happened to be stored).

Gardening will only have a chance to work, IMHO, if all of your well-armed neighbors and their neighbors are doing 4 season organic gardening, which is not the usual suburban landscaping plan. Hungry storming mobs may reduce that chance.

I prefer my chances in a semi-rural area, on top of a hill with clear sight 500+ feet in every direction. Two neighbors so far have warmed to storing food, if primarily because of the threat of avian flu. And both have small arms training/experience. Other neighbors will take more delicate discussions, but one family is LDS and already stores food.

Suburbia is not the ideal survival location for the reason I stated.Out of the WHOLE neighborhood,there will only be a handful who are prepared.
So tell me what the others will do after two weeks when they have no more supplies?Will they sit in their secure suburban home and wait to starve to death?I doubt it.

Suburbia is not the ideal survival location for the reason I stated.Out of the WHOLE neighborhood,there will only be a handful who are prepared.
So tell me what the others will do after two weeks when they have no more supplies?Will they sit in their secure suburban home and wait to starve to death?I doubt it.

Did I mention I live in Utah? I'm not LDS but most of my neighbors are. I did a search for churches in my town and came up with 9 listings. Eight were LDS. My neighbors have stored food and a basis for community cooperation in their neighborhood churches. My big worry is to what extent I and other "gentiles" will be excluded from that community in hard times.

I know enough about military matters to understand that a residential home is not a defensible structure. That's why rich people build safe houses inside their mansions.

Hiding is the only option. A gun could be useful against a minor threat, but a determined group of people is coming into your house if they want to bad enough.

my .02

generators are noisy and likely to announce to the less prepared that you wre thinking ahead.

consider a hand pump and a storage tank from the simple pump company if you have a well. this will allow to pump water without electricity.

get gas masks, smoke and pepper spray grenades to repulse crowds. or even up the odds for an attack where you are severly outnumbered.

survival in a suburban setting will take planning. you will need like minded people in the community with whom you can share responsibilities and tasks.

you, your wife, and your kids should know about marksmanship and practical shooting.

mindset will be the key to survival if things ever get that bad.

read jeff cooper's principles of personal defense.

"So tell me what the others will do after two weeks when they have no more supplies?Will they sit in their secure suburban home and wait to starve to death?I doubt it."


Water supercedes food by multiples. In the event of a water shut off, I predict subdivisions will be abandoned immediately. Paniced families will pack all the food they have and whatever else they can carry into their cars and drive off on their last tank of gas in search of water. I would not want to be one of those people, I tell you. I think my subdivision would be a ghost town within 3 days and I don't see anyone coming back, unless they realize there is a little water back home in their water heater.

So, I don't see anybody knocking on my door asking if I have food. They shouldn't have any reason to think I am home.

I have never thought about these issues before. But last month in my town there was no gas available for 3 full days and we didn't even have a real supply interruption or panic. That was just the result of a small percentage of people all deciding to fill up on the same day in the wake of the hurricane. In the event of a real problem, the stores would be empty in a hearbeat.

I never thought of pepper spray...what a GREAT idea! There's a thing called "Bear Guard" for use when camping...it's a very strong pepper spray that sprays farther & longer...that would be VERY effective on a crowd.

Think i'll pick up some.

Thanks!

Daryl,

You're right that most people flee the urban areas, but not everyone, the looters/criminals stay behind - New Orleans is a good example. So, you will have good company. I also think people underestimate the power of one armed person willing to shoot. People are like water, they follow the least path of resistance. The looters have a tendency to go through the vacant homes and rob from those that don't shoot back. Again, New Orleans is a good example, but also Hurricane Andrew and even the Rodney King riots.