This started in "What I did today.." but deserves its own thread:
Pops
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CarlinsDarlin
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:51 pm Post subject:

Today I finally managed to tear down the remainder of the small building I've been working on. The lumber I salvage is going into building my greenhouse on the same spot. I got started (just a bit) on the construction of it as well.

I also added some chicken manure, table scraps and straw to my compost bin. Did quite a bit of reading on rabbit raising in companionship with vermiculture in the greenhouse - and am leaning toward that set-up in my greenhouse. It seems like a win-win-win to me - rabbit meat (and pelts?), rabbit manure feeds the worms, worms make compost - heat from the compost and the rabbits helps heat the greenhouse in winter. I have much more to learn, but this seems like the way to go to me.

And so - Even though the prybar bounced back and hit me square in the nose during the demolition phase today - it was a pretty good day .
Kathy
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Pops
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Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:06 pm Post subject:


I also worked on the new greenhouse and did some studying, Kathy . Our future greenhouse is an old 1-car garage - I tore the siding off the south side today. I bought pressure treated lumber to replace the old oak framing but can't decide which I should use. I did rescue the oak 1 x 10 sheathing for shelves.

I have lots of old double hung windows to use that I have repainted and reglazed but they still need work. I wonder if I should use plex inside?

My reading was on grass fed beef and managing pasture - http://aes.missouri.edu/fsrc/research/index.stm
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Ludi
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:10 am Post subject:

Don't use plexiglass in place of real glass. Plexiglass will break down in sunlight.
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CarlinsDarlin
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Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:21 am Post subject:

Ludi,
I thought of that - and have heard it before - but do you know how long it takes to dicolor or damage? Just curious. We used to have a dog that got too excited and jumped up on a window and broke the glass out (he was 100+ lbs). Eleven stitches later , we replaced the glass in that window with plexi - didnt want to cut him again if he did the same thing (and he did, about 3 more times).
Kathy

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CarlinsDarlin
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Posts: 124
Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:40 pm Post subject:

Today (in 30 degrees and winds out of the northwest at 25mph ) I played chicken herder. Actually, the wind gusts somehow blew open the main door to my henhouse, and we were out chasing chickens and rounding them back up into the chicken run. I know they would have eventually come home tonight - but there's been a fox running loose around here, and Carlin saw a coyote two days ago. Not to mention the hawks that fly over our place every day.... I didn't want to take any chances.

Since we were outside anyway, we also added some insulating material to the inside of the coop. It helped considerably to block some drafts that were going through in a couple places. Hopefully the ladies will be warmer and produce some more eggs .

Finally, we also salvaged 16 windows to use in the construction of my greenhouse. All will be on the south side of the building. I'm hoping there's enough windows to do the entire side in glass, rather than having to use plastic sheeting (which was going to be the only other option right now). We'll see how it goes.

Tomorrow's goals are to make some headway in the greenhouse construction, pick up everything the wind blew around today (a considerable amount - including my entire bin of aluminum cans that I save for recycling), and turn under the entire garden spot in preparation for the spring. It'll be turned at least once more before we really begin preparing for planting. I plan to try some biointensive methods this year, so turning it over, and loosening the dirt a bit will help me with preparing beds. I figure I have about 8 good weeks left before I'll start being able to put out early spring veggies - so I have a lot to do with both the garden and greenhouse. I hope to be able to start seeds in the greenhouse by the end of Februrary. Wish me luck .
Kathy
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kpeavey
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Location: North Central Florida
Posted: Sat Jan 22, 2005 10:00 pm Post subject:

Kathy: As concerning those aluminum cans that blew around...

I save my cans for use in the greenhouse. Cut the bottom off, you end up with a tube. If you fill the tube with soil, you have the makings for a seed propagation cell. Add a seed or two, add water. The open bottom allows for drainage, although this may mean too much drainage that you have to water it again in a couple of days. At any rate, for the cost of nothing, you have a plant a few inches tall wich will easily transplant without disturbing the roots, you can space the plants jusdt right, and give the thing a head start come the warm season..
Simply dig a hole the size of the can, put the can in the hole, then tap the side while you lift out the can, leaving the plant ready to grow into a hearty vegetable...

... or something like that.

It may take a little trial and error, but you may find these cans to be useful tools, and the price is right. reduce, REUSE, recyle.
I have several of these cans in operation right now growing dill, tomato, avacado, an apple tree ( if 3" high qualifies as a tree), green peppers, what have you. They will last for severl years. You can bleach them if you wish to sterilize them between plantings. They are bug and fireproof, rot resistant and quite durable. I also use some scrap PVC pipe in the same manner
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CarlinsDarlin
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:48 am Post subject:


kpeavey,
Thanks for the idea. I may do that with some of the cans, just to see how it works. It sounds like a very workable idea. I save them generally for the local humane society - they cash in the cans and use them to support the shelter. But I certainly try to re-use as many things as I can - hence the 16 salvaged windows in the construction of the greenhouse.

My grandmother had a running greenhouse when she was alive - and I'm always scrounging things from there too. There are probably more pots (both small and large) in there than I will ever use, but when I get the greenhouse up and running, I'll be bringing a lot of them home. There are both plastic and terra cotta pots to use, so I think I'll have plenty.

Right now I'm getting antsy about getting started on the garden. Not much I can do today, though, without the greenhouse ready. It's about 20 degrees outside - and I'm just not willing to go out in that to work - YET. A few more cups of coffee and I might tackle a couple projects.

Kathy
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Pops
I post too much!

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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:22 am Post subject:

On the greenhouse covering, I was actually referring to twin wall polycarbonate sheets not Plexiglas per say. It transmits light well, is impact resistant (think BIG hail) and has a dead air space built in so has some insulation value. Here is a comparison chart: http://www.igcusa.com/Technical/coverings.html

I was thinking of using the twin wall stuff on the inside to insulate the 4' or so of "greenhouse" from the rest of the shed while allowing some light and heat to pass through. After messing around for hours yesterday trying to get my menagerie of rotten sash arranged I've decided to go with the polycarb on the outside instead of glass, I've wasted enough time on it already. The sash will be stored away for some other use in the future such as germination trays inside the greenhouse. I'm going with double poly "film" on the inside. "Visquene" was all I used in CA but the weather isn't quite the same here in the "Alley"!

You can also buy UV resistant, drip proof, and infrared reflective films as well, I'll have to get my greenhouse catalog out to provide a link but I'm sure you can google one.


On the topic of pots - I had probably hundreds of pots of every description before we moved - I was the green-thumb guy that everyone brought their old plastic pots to. I left them all in various stages of decay in CA and am trying soil blocks this year > Scroll to the bottom of this page <
I bought the little one for quick warming of tomatoes etc and will improvise something for planting up to larger blocks - if it works well I'll get the BIG 'UN! This seems a great way to go if it works - NO consumables aside from soil mixture - unless you are selling seedlings.


I'm thinking of building benches from conduit and fence panels - any thoughts?
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uNkNowN ElEmEnt
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 11:52 am Post subject:


The tin idea is an interesting one. There is a new can opener out there that cuts off the top at the fold on the rim. This leaves you with an edge that won't cut you.

I don't want to spend 175.00 (american yet) for a soil block maker. I want to make a form. theres not bottom just sides. It will be made of treated wood and the slats of wood that setarate the blocks into smaller pieces will be modular. you will be able to take them apart. I expect it will cost me nothing since I already have lots of wood around here. I will try and make a drawing of it to post here soon.

CD, for a green house, I've been playing with the idea of building as many of the walls as I can out of straw bales to keep the warmth in. I think you only need the south facing slanted roof (at a 45degree angle) to be glass. that lets the heat in but the straw bale keeps it in.

I am wondering what others would think of this idea. I have to have something that would be built to withstand cold temperatures. and straw bale would be warmer than cob or all glass walls. if anyone is interested I might try to make a picture of that and post it too.

finally. for insulating the windows of the greenhouse at night I was wondering waht peopel thought of making a form of straw about 4"-5: thick. its straw covered bysomething (not sure yet, to keep the heat in while the temp outside sinks. any thoughts from others?
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kpeavey
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:32 pm Post subject:

Every freestanding greenhouse I see has the clear covering over the north side. There is no sunlight coming in from the north side. A solid north wall makes sense. Straw bales will give you R2 for each inch, hence a 24" bale will offer R48, real nice.

For heating the greenhouse: I have 500' of 3/4" PEP hose (lawn irrigation hose, 100' is about $10) coiled on my driveway, about 8 feet across, a small circulation pump sitting in a 32 gallon trash can full of water inside the greenhouse, and a timer to run the pump. I just got the timer in place this week, and it is working as planned. Sun hits the hose, heats water as it flows through, circulates through the trash can, trash can heats up. I've had the trash can up to 95 degrees. At night, as the greenhouse cools, the heat in the trash can acts as a buffer, giving off its stored heat. It has never been below 50 degrees inside the greenhouse, even with a hard freeze outside. The 8 watt pump costs me about a dime a month to operate.

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spear
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 1:42 pm Post subject:

Youll need some wire mesh if you want that stucko to stay on upside down.And you´ll have to anchor it.
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kpeavey
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Location: North Central Florida
Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:38 pm Post subject:

Your greenhouse2 makes more sense to me.

The greatest need for heat will be during the coldest part of winter. If the slope of the roof was set at your lattitude+15 degrees, you would get maximum solar gain when you need it most. I'm at 30 degrees north, so a 45 degree slope on the roof makes the most effective solar collector design.

Straw bales have the added advantage that they can be removed easily during the warm season to allow air flow, keeping the plants from getting to hot. If the straw bales begin to deteriorate, they can always be composted.
Old straw bales are cheaper than new straw bales, as they are not desireable for feeding the livestock. Last years straw bales can be had for a buck a bale if not for free.
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smallpoxgirl
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:30 pm Post subject:

kpeavey wrote:
Old straw bales are cheaper than new straw bales, as they are not desireable for feeding the livestock. Last years straw bales can be had for a buck a bale if not for free.


I thought animals had to be fed hay not straw? Are there some that eat straw?
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kpeavey
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Posted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 9:42 pm Post subject:

I am incorrect.

from: Strawbale Sourcebook
Quote:
DEFINITION:

Straw bale construction uses baled straw from wheat, oats, barley, rye, rice and others in walls covered by stucco. Straw bale are traditionally a waste product which farmers do not till under the soil, but do sell as animal bedding or landscape supply due to their durable nature. In many areas of the country, it is also burned, causing severe air quality problems. It is important to recognize that straw is the dry plant material or stalk left in the field after a plant has matured, been harvested for seed, and is no longer alive. Hay bales are made from short species of livestock feed grass that is green/alive and are not suitable for this application. Hay is also typically twice the price of straw.

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Ludi
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Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:40 am Post subject:

Quote:
I thought animals had to be fed hay not straw? Are there some that eat straw?

Though they prefer fresh grass or hay, ruminants (not horses) can be fed straw as long as they have some source of protein.
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CarlinsDarlin
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Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:07 pm Post subject:


Today I finished about 3/4 of the framing on the greenhouse. It's not going to be as big as I would have liked, but the up-side is that I have yet to buy any materials for the construction. All of the lumber was already on hand, left over from previous projects, or scrounged. I'll have my neice tomorrow, so I probably won't finish the framing then, but Thursday looks promising!
K
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uNkNowN ElEmEnt
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 1:30 pm Post subject:


I've totally amended those plans because they don't do enough with the angle of the sun.
I've sunk the greenhouse 2 into the ground by two-three feet, with insulation and changed front window to two windows. the bigest and lower one with a slope of 64 degrees and a top one for thermally heating the backdrop for winter heat.

I am thinking about using the windows to collect rain water that will srip down onto the bale outcropping and send it around into the greenhouse back wall which will heat it and or be used to water the greenhouse. Now I just have to figure out how to do this without power.

I think this one might actually make it to the blue print stage.
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kpeavey
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:55 pm Post subject:


UE: stucco will probably stick to the underside of a sloped roof. You could take the extra step of attaching some construction fabric or wire mesh over the area first.

LIME STUCCO FORMULAS:

SCRATCH/BASE COAT

1/2 bag ---- White Portland Cement*
2 1/2 bags ---- Type-S Lime
90 shovels ---- Masonary Sand
Large Handful ---- "Chopped Strand" Fiberglass Fiber


FINISH COAT

one shovel ---- White Portland Cement*
2 bags ---- Type-S Lime
65 shovels ---- Masonary Sand
16 cups ---- Ferrous Sulfate Powder (water soluable) as coloring**

*A small amount of Portland Cement was added to increase drying/curing time. Lime plaster takes a minimum of two to three weeks to cure otherwise. Since we were under time constraints and had to shoot the walls within a two day weekend, adding approximately 20%cement (one to five ratio of cement to lime) produced sufficient drying/curing that the second finish coat could be applied within 24 hours. Only a small amount of cement was added to the final coat. Adding more than 20% cement is not recommended as it significantly decreases the breathability of the stucco which is so crucial for straw bale walls.

White cement was used since coloring added later to the finished walls will take and cover better than over the grey of the more common form of Portland cement.


http://www.eere.energy.gov/EE/strawhous ... straw.html
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kpeavey
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:05 pm Post subject:


As far as the blueprints for the grenhouse:
I've got some designs, drew them up, measured stuff, checked prices, the whole deal. When I realized I was spending more time planning the greenhouse than actually getting around to it, I grabbed what materials ihad on hand and slapped one together.
I built a 8'x8'x8' cube out of some studs lying about, took the door off the tiny bedroom, covered the whole thing with visqueen. It took a day to build, cost me about 30 bucks because my staple gun and hammer were at my brother's house.

Regardless of the cost and time involved, since I got it done on Thanksgiving day I have learned for more than can be read about operating a greenhouse online.

One particularly interestig feature is the rain. When the door opens and closes, condensation from the loose plastic drops on everything inside. The plan to keep a clipboard with notes and records goes out the door due to the humidity curling up the paper and the moisture making everything illegible.

I've found there are severl types of clear poly covering, some will last, it is said, up to 4 years. Talking with people in the area I have learned it is not so much the type of material that gives the plastic a lifetime, it is the construction. The flapping of the cheap plastic is what rips it to shreds. A good tight cover will last for severl season, even with the cheap stuff.

I use a solar heated tankto heat the place. Being nice and comfy during the cold of winter, fire ants have moved in. I keep a bag of fire ant killer in there now.

I still have plans for the next greenhouse, but this one gives me practical hands on experience, which wil be invaluable when I build the next one.

Get on with it.
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CarlinsDarlin
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Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 8:05 pm Post subject:

kpeavey,
I understand completely. I've planned and thought about a greenhouse for what seems like two years now - though seriously thinking about it since March last year. Finally I just said to heck with it, and started building. Mine is a little more than a cube - I'll have a section on the south side built at an angle (about half the south side) - but I'm using recycled lumber in the construction, and have put most of it together in just about a day and a half. I hope to finish the framing tomorrow, and then start with the plastic and glass. Then the fun begins - actually learning what I can grow and how to grow it . I'm looking forward to it.
Kathy
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Pops
I post too much!

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Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:34 am Post subject:

I wound up using polyethylene on the outside of the greenhouse. I did buy the 4 year, UV resistant stuff from the greenhouse supplier: http://www.hummert.com/catalog.asp?C=65&SC=24&P=8452
If it lasts 4 years $100 bought enough for 20 years. The good panels weren't available locally and would have cost almost $400 to be shipped.

I used old lath boards to install the poly in 2 layers - the 1/4" between the layers is "dead air" and gives a surprising amount of insulation. The layers must be kept apart as the air space, not the poly is the insulator, the big guys use blowers where there is a big span between supports.

To separate the "greenhouse" from the rest of the building I built a wall of 2 x 2's and 1/2" foil faced rigid foam panels - I used 8 at $10 each. Having the walls without solar gain insulated makes a huge difference - I'll never do the all-clear again.

Today is benches, germination flats, power for soil heaters and rolling in 2 - 55gal drums for thermal mass.
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CarlinsDarlin
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Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 7:19 am Post subject:

Got a greenhouse question. I've been researching this morning (since I woke up at 3 am ) about thermal mass/heating my greenhouse. The last several cloudy and cold days have raised a question in my mind. I understand that collecting heat and storing it in barrels (water-filled) will work to heat my greenhouse on nights following sunny days, but what to do about a stretch of several days where it is overcast and/or rainy?

I'm particularly worried about this because I have baby chicks arriving in a couple weeks. Once they outgrow the brooder, I was planning to put them in the greenhouse until they're big enough to join the rest of the chickens. But, winters in Arkansas can be pretty gloomy from time to time. I worry that just such a cloudy stretch will arrive just as I need the greenhouse to stay relatively warm because the babies are in there.

Of course, I could always run power out there and put in a small heater, but I'm trying to avoid that. My greenhouse will be about 8' x 14' - insulated north wall painted white on the inside to reflect heat back into the greenhouse - and onto the water barrels (perhaps I'll insulate the east and west walls too, not sure about that yet). About 2/3 of the south wall sits at a 45 degree angle MOL, with the other 1/3 being the entrance - hence straight up and down. This will, for now, use plexiglass on the outside, with plastic on the inside to act as - sort of - a double glazing. (Remember I'm building this from scraps ) I also plan to build in an air lock on the entrance, to help prevent some loss of heat while entering and leaving the greenhouse.

So, now that you know what I'm working with, I need help deciding how to heat the structure on cloudy days...Any ideas?
Kathy
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Pops
I post too much!

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Posts: 1170
Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2005 8:35 am Post subject:


You could build a compost bin inside and use lots of manure. Also use a covering on the glazed side at night and really overcast days - or days with freezing rain. I found some of the black/white stuff in the shop and it will work well for our house in the cold as well as summer shade.

That's all I can think of aside from a heater of some type. I did have luck down to about 25 with just a heat lamp in the 14 x 14 greenhouse in CA - at least it kept everything from freezing.

I'm going to copy off some of the greenhouse posts and start a dedicated thread so others can find info easier.
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Pops

The other thing about having power in the greenhouse is that you can use a propagation mat. They aren’t necessary but unless you have an area that stays above 55 or 60 degrees constantly you will have much better luck with starting tomatoes and peppers, and rooting your woody plants by using a mat to keep the soil warm.

http://www.hummert.com/catalog.asp?C=65&SC=82

I’m building an insulated germination box from rigid foam and glass top to put the mat in. I should be able to get 1,000 little soil blocks in the 2’ x 5’ area.

Since a root cellar is in the ground and keeps vegies all winter could it be used to shelter seedlings too? I know the closer your roots are to the idea growing temp the faster they will grow but in the spring if they were sheltered in a root cellar form frost would that not be good enough?

Thanks, Pops for dedicating this subject to its own thread. It will be easier for me to find too . I was thinking about a compost bin, as I said in an earlier post - combining rabbits with vermiculture - but I still have a lot to learn on that subject, and I doubt I'll have anything workable by the time I need to utilize the greenhouse for the chickens. I also have read some about covering the glazed side - may have to try to figure something out there. What I have read says that if it's permeable to water, it also loses heat faster, so whatever covering I use will have to be weather tight too. I may end up using a space heater for at least this go-around. Luckily, by the time the chicks need to be in the greenhouse, we'll be well into March - and hopefully the weather won't be so biting as it has been in January.

kpeavey, (who replied on the original thread after Pops moved it )
The brooder I plan to use is a design that was written about in Backwoods Home magazine. It should hold the chicks until they're about 4 weeks old. During that time, they'll be guests in our guest bedroom - hopefully nobody will come for a visit during that time . I don't want to put them in with the bigger guys until they're at least 6-8 weeks old, though. Hence, the need for the greenhouse. It won't need to be kept at 90 degrees (as it would for brand new chicks), but it certainly needs to be warm enough so they don't freeze. If I just had a mama hen who would adopt them I'd be happier ... but there are going to be 50 of them, and I wouldn't wish that on any mother .

I hadn't thought about the humidity issue. I would imagine that humidity helps keep the air warmer (humid air feels more hot than dry air), so it would be a plus. And it certainly won't be warm enough in the greenhouse this early in the year to worry about anybody getting overheated. I know correct humidity is an issue for incubating eggs, but I hadn't thought about it for baby chicks... anyone know? (Pops, do we need to start a chicken thread? )

The brooder I mentioned is outlined in the link below. I'll have two of them set up - about 25 chicks in each. This might help if you're planning to order day-old chicks as I am. In the spring, however, I'm letting my hens set - and then I won't have to worry about the whole issue .


Here's the link.
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/gist80.html

Thanks for the good advice - I'll look forward to learning more .
Kathy

I did vermiposting for a year once. it was fun. I recommend red wiggler worms. I heard of one guy who let them loose in his garden. He kept feeding them in the same place and they would come back. this made it easy cause they manured is gardens but came back so he could cull some of them for fishing anytime he wanted.

just make sure that the food you give them is mostly dry, not lots of moisture.

Slightly off topic and I do appologise but does anyone have any ideas for securing their crops while they are growing? How can you keep theives out if they sneak in in the middle of the night? Its not like we can shoot them, or stay up all freaking night. Ideas?

claymores

Plant things that don't look like food or that most people won't want to eat (most root crops, brussel sprouts). Keep your garden looking like a weedpatch with plenty of actual weeds, the edible kind such as dandelion and amaranth. Plant a boundary of thorny blackberries around it.

I use my greenhouse primarily to propagate seeds.
With limited space in the double dug raised beds, I want to maximize their use. Starting seeds in the greenhouse for 3 weeks has several advantages.

-When the plants go into the beds, they have a 3 week head start. The plants spend less time in the beds, giving me more crops per year out of the same space.
-I transplant only the seedlings that sprout. I have no empty space as I would have if I sowed the seeds into the beds directly.
-Although I add compost to the beds with each planting, the new transplants always have the best topsoil/starting mix immediately around the root zone.
-When the plants go into the bed, they already have roots a couple of inches long. This makes them more drought tolerant.
-When the plants go into the ground, They already have attained a couple of inches in height, offering them a little more resistance to insect damage. What might kill a sprout may not kill the 3 week old plant.
-I am able to space the plants just right. No thinning is needed, they are not crowded, no gaps.
-I can mulch immediately. Once the transplants go in, I can add a layer of compost around the plants. This layer would be too thick for a directly sowed seed. The mulch serves to suppress weeds and works AMAZINGLY well.

In the greenhouse I use several types of cells for starting the seeds.
-PVC pipe, 1.5 and 2", about 3" in height.
-old tin cans. I cut the bottom off, I have a tube.
-72 cell plastic propagation inserts from the feed store. these are the commercial trays 11x21 you might see in stores full of flowers
-larger traditional plastic plant pots
-disposable plastic cups. 2 per cell. The inside cup has the bottom cut off and is cut from top to bottom to release the plant and the soil in one piece so as not to disturb the roots. The outside cup has a few holes in the bottom and serves to contain the inside cup.
-1 gallon milk jugs with the tops cut off

I'm finding that the key to the operation is having some sort of tray to hold the cells. I was using some ceramic tile, but drainage was leaving the plants drying out. I have experimented with several types of tray.
-a couple of old pie tins
-the aluminum foil pan from a swanson hungry man lasagna. The lasagna was awful, but the pan is working well.
-Plastic shoe box sized containers from the dollar store. For a buck, they also come with a lid, which I also use to hold cells
-commercial trays 11x21
-ceramic tile
-for those of you who are more frugal: Last night I made sausage and peppers. The sausage is packages with a foam tray. It is just big enough to hold a few cans and retains the water, preventing the plant from drying to death. i have 2 of them in there, they seem to be doing the trick. It works and it don't cost nothin.
-a couple of aluminum baking sheets.

There are 2 qualities I look for:
1 cheap
2 durable

The foam trays and tin cans are cheap as dirt.
The PVC pipe and the aluminum trays will last forever.

As far as practicality, the PVC is working well for me.

I am not raising many plants to term in the greenhouse. The mild winters of northern Florida allow me to grow stuff in the garden all year.

Here's what I have going on right now:
9 Apple
3 avacado
12 Basil
144 Beets, Detroit Dark Red
92 carrot
1 Chives
44 Collards
4 Dill
6 Kiwi
8 Oregano, Wild Marjoram
216 Peas, Little Marvel
49 Peppers, Green, California Wonder 300 TMR
5 Rosemary
144 spinach
13 tarragon
17 Tomato, Beefsteak
2 Thyme
144 Turnip, Purple Top White Globe
913 TOTAL

The greenhouse is 8'x8'x8'
I'll start about 100 more plants tonight with the cells I transplanted this afternoon

kpeavey,
I hope to have a good list like yours in the near future . Generally my plan is the same - to use the greenhouse for starting seeds. But I also hope to use it to expand the growing season well into fall here, once the weather gets too cold for growing things outside. We'll see how it works. Oh, a question, though - what do you use as mulch around your newly transplanted seedlings?

UE,
I'd read that the red wigglers were the best for composting - but not necessarily the best for gardening. Since they like to eat things off the top of the soil, they don't necessarily work the soil very deeply in a traditional garden bed. They also need temperatures between (I think...) 40-80 degrees to do well. That's one reason they work so well in greenhouses, so the theory goes. Once I get the greenhouse up and running, I'll see about ordering some worms . Of course, then I have to get rabbits... one thing always leads to another, doesn't it?

We went over and looked at some refrigeration panels today to use as possible insulation on the north wall. They're basically sheet metal on both "outsides," with a wood (2x4) frame holding the metal apart. In between the sheets of metal is about 6 inches of insulation. They're painted white, which would save me a step in painting them on the inside of the greenhouse... and boy are they heavy.

A friend was going to give them to us if we could use them. I can see that they would provide great insulation, but lordy were they huge . Each one was about 20 feet long, 4 feet tall, and at least 6 inches thick. They could be cut, I would imagine, with a reciprocating saw, but I haven't yet figured out how to attach them to the inside of the (already framed in) wall - long lag bolts maybe? Anyway, I don't know if I'll use them or not, but it is an option.

The framing is all finished on the greenhouse, however. So, tomorrow, weather permitting, I will start the wrapping up of the box . It may take a bit - because the one thing I still have to buy is the 4x8 sheets of 1/4 inch plexiglass that we're using for the south exterior. Luckily, my husband can get it at half price from his employer, so we'll get two sheets for about $60. That may have to wait till payday. In the mean time, I'll scrounge grandma's greenhouse, and get pots, potting benches, shelving and any other goodies I can find, and start getting things set up inside.

I just love seeing the frame all finished in the yard . Makes me feel like I have actually accomplished something . Oh, and the best part yet - so far I have only spent $8 in construction .

Kathy

CD, what kind of worms do you like? the red wigglers I used were actually for appartment vermiposting. I never used the excess in my container garden (Duh!)

You've done all that for only $8.00? Stellar!

Oh, the red wigglers are exactly what I am planning to use - I just won't turn them loose in the garden when I get too many. Either the chickens will eat them, or I'll sell them as fishing bait. We're about 10 miles from a very large lake here, and the same distance from a river - from which was caught the world record brown trout a few years ago. There's lots of fishing in the area. And lots of bait shops I can sell the wigglers to.

Since I'm new to this myself, I can't tell you the exact variety that's best for the gardens, but they are the bigger worms sometimes sold as fishing bait - easier to put on the hook. I'll look it up again if you want the scientific name - can't remember it this early and without coffee .

And the $8 is because I've used reclaimed lumber in every part of the framing thus far - the only money I spent was on some lumber that had been put in the "cull rack" at the local building center - because the boards were a bit warped. Heck I was planning to cut them anyway, so warped boards didn't matter much to me. I got 4 - 16 ft long 2x4's, 1 - 14 ft long 2x4, and 1 - 8 ft long 2x4 for 50 cents each . It's a good place to look if you want cheap lumber and are willing to use a stretcher to get the boards to go where you want them.
Kathy

Looking at the members list It appears these forums came online around March of last year.

Seems to be a winner.

The past week or so has seen a great deal of activity concerning greenhouses. To bring things back inline with the purpose of these forums, I thought I might do a stream about why some of us are into the greenhouse thing and what good they can do.

After several months of studying the problems of peak oil, it is time to move forward with actual preparations and actions to supplement our planning. It is also the season when greenhouses get busy for the spring planting. This explains the recent surge in discussion. I would guess there will be another surge in the greenhouse thread this time next year.

It boils down to localized food production and self sufficiency. The days of transporting food from the field to your table, travelling an average of 1500 miles, will soon come to an end. The cost will become prohibitive, while the demand for food will continue to increase for a considerable while.

Let me tell you a few stories first, I'll put them together in a bit...

I picked up some red peppers for my dinner a couple of days ago, the sticker on them said Mexico. If these things travelled by land, the came from northern Mexico and travelled a good thousand miles to get to my plate. If they came by sea, they still travelled a good 700 miles at least.
I paid 50¢ each. You can bet the guy who grew them did not get half that.
As oil prices rise, what will be the price of those peppers in a year, 2 years, 5 years?

Last year I had 5 pepper plants produce 42 peppers over the course of 100 days. I was impressed, they tasted great, had no chemical fertilizers, pesticides or herbicides and could not be fresher. I gave some to my neighbor and some to people at work.

Until recently I worked at a local restaurant. Real fancy Italian place, all the Swells came in. In my opinion, Italian is the best food on earth. I actually have a well developed business plan for my own restaurant (I've been in the industry for 20 years), but just don't have the capital to throw open my own doors. Each day I see the product come in the back door: chicken, beef, seafood, fresh produce and dairy. I miss the place but the new job pays about double. As oil prices rise, how will this affect his ability to continue to operate and still make a buck?

I live in northern Florida which gives me the advantage of being able to plant crops in the ground all year long. During the winter months I can't grow peppers outside, no tomatoes, squash, zukes, cukes, or eggplant (even though I hate eggplant). With a greenhouse I can.

A working greenhouse can be built for cheap. It does not have to be fancy or elegant in order to function. Most of my plants have no interest in how it looks. They only care that it is warm, that I water them, and that I pull out the occasional weed. I think it makes them nervous when I show up just before dinnertime. I've got less than $50 into my greenhouse, Kathy built hers for 8 bucks. Money is not an obstacle to building one. The biggest problem is space. My house sits on less than 1/3 acre. My greenhouse is 8x8 and I have about 1000 plants started in there. Maybe space is not a problem after all.

So let's say you have very little space and even less money. At least you can build a working greenhouse. Once you have a greenhouse, what can you do with it? Let's put it all together.

As long as there are people, there will be a demand for food. As fuel prices rise, so will just about everything else, including food. Not only will food prices rise, but items commonly available in the stores now will begin to disappear as it becomes impractical to ship produce hundreds or thousands of miles. If you want a mango, you better have a mango tree in your backyard, otherwise you will be paying through the nose.

For home food production, greenhouses offer the ability to increase your yield. Starting seeds for transplants. Growing plants to term inside. You can grow tropical plants in non-tropical climates. If it is big enough, you can grow a coffee tree. Mmmm...coffee. [gulp]

I project that home gardening will become more popular as fuel prices rise. People will be supplementing their diet and income with food grown in their backyard. Many, not knowing how simple ad easy it is to operate a greenhouse, will not build one, as they are sheep and too afraid to leap into the unknown. The transplant market will be a wide open arena. It does not take many customers to put together a nice little side income. What a fine buffer against increased prices.

The project can be extended as far as you want to take it. Most produce is grown in large single crop fields with lots of inputs, then shipped great distances. If you have the space, you can grow a wide variety of crops. The greater the space, the greater the volume. That restaurant I used to work at will be happy to keep paying 50¢ for a green pepper. He'll be happy to be able to get lettuce from you when he can't get it at all from California. He'll be happy to buy my canned tomato sauce, my dried herbs, fresh eggs and chicken. He'll be happy to offer his guests healthy, fresh, organic, locally grown produce. He'll be especially happy to keep his doors open because he has product available at prices people can still afford.

If you had a greenhouse and field space capable of feeding your family, plus sufficient surplus to supply just one restaurant, you have a buffer against job loss.

It takes quite a lot of effort to grow enough product for just a small restaurant. Then again it takes very little effort to fail to plan for the future.

There are several different routes to take. Consider a Comunity Supported Agriculture farm (CSA). Farmers markets. Produce stand. Country store.
Start a big pile of seeds, sell transplants. What does not sell gets planted and grown to term. The best stuff gets sold, stored or personally consumed. The second rate stuff is sold at a discount or fed to livestock.

In the summer, greenhouses can get mighty hot. So hot that no plants can survive. If you have 3 months with high heat, consider removing all the shelves and filling it with green firewood. The thing will make a fine kiln. This is another entire industry all to itself.

Simply put, a greenhouse is opportunity. Demand for products moved through a greenhouse can only increase. In the event TSHTF, the opportunity becomes one of survival.

I'm going to wear the letters off the keyboard and I'm out of coffee.

After the many discussions about city or country, hard or soft, gold or guns and what can I do to prepare, greenhouses are one thing from which most everyone can benefit. A greenhouse is any structure that modifies the climate in a fairly predictable way – from a mayonnaise jar over a seedling in the windowsill, to a 500’ long double glazed, climate controlled growing shed with millions of dollars worth of wine grape seedlings.

Some things I googled up:

111 hits From ATTRA: Search page

Strawbale construction in greenhouses thread at Ibiblio: http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/perm ... 04245.html

Some Links - http://www.hobbygreenhouse.org/links.htm

homesteading today gardening forum

frugal’s homesteading forum



I also tripped across a page that talked about chickens and rabbits in greenhouses with plants and the problems with ammonia condensing then “rainingâ€

Im running behind for a couple of reasons.The plan was to get the greenhouse up by February,but I havent decided yet on where and which way to situate it as its going to be 500 or so sq.meters.
Another problem with a greenhouse this size which I would call "commercial" is the nylon.Fine I can put nylon thats going to last 4-5 years,I can even stock a roll for the next five years But will that roll that is in the storage dry out and become brittle ?So im analyzing a couple scenarios yet.
I will just plant outside again this year and set the greenhouse up in the fall when I have concluded with these details.
In the meantime this link may interest some .
http://www.newfarm.org/features/0404/mo ... ouse.shtml
apparently this guy makes 50k a year from his veggies.
I also posted a link on subterranean greenhouse heating on the energy forum a while back .
For the greenhouse to work as a kiln you will need a fan to get the moisture out and a couple other things.If you do a google on solar kilns there are some good plans out there.