Jo - while a lot of the books recommended so far look really useful, it's worth remembering that there's simply no substitute for experience.

Thus I think this thread needs another branch concerning finding that practical experience.

I'd well agree with your plan that its worth making a steady shift to a productive way of life rather than just leaping in at the deep end, IF there are cogent reasons for delay, such as dependants, involvement in relevant work or training in the cities, financial schedules and competence, etc.

From this perspective, starting to get practical experience of farming is plainly best done by working part time (maybe for bed and board or less) on a good organic farm.

[While I've a lot of respect for Permaculture, it appears thus far to be less involved with growing food for the whole community than is the general Organic movement. I'd be glad to find I'm wrong on this].

I should probably say here that one of the surprises for most people without skills is how little their work is worth to a farm, at least before they've started to pick up both skills and endurance, as well as patience.

Think about putting in say one fiftieth of the unskilled labour of tending a smallholder's flock of sheep, spread over a year. Beside the farmer's skilled labour and all the materials the flock consumes there's also the overheads that must be met. No doubt the income varies widely from country to country, but for example in the UK the farmer gets only a small percentage of the retail price, even including subsidies.

The pro rata income from 1/50th of the unskilled labour input is thus reduced to a few pennies per lamb, and the farm only gets paid for it when it's finally sold.

No doubt those looking for part-time farm work who see the real value of learning from skilled farmers (while getting experience of farming) will have a great advantage in finding such jobs.

One excellent organization for bring together organic farms and would-be workers is a bunch known as Woofers (working weekends on organic farms). They have an international reach for those wanting to enjoy productive working holidays. Well recommended !

With regard to a booklist, I reckon the classic work by John & Sally Seymour "Self Sufficiency" is of enduring value. While it has a lot of relevant info for small scale efforts, its real focus is for the smallholder and traditional small farmer, who will no doubt be sorely needed in the coming changes.

Happy travels,

Backstop

Another good chance to learn livestock skills would be to volunteer at a Heifer International farm. There are 3 in the U.S. One in California, one in Massachusetts, and the main center in Arkansas. They're at http://www.heifer.org/ You pay for room and board and whatever program fees that are specific to the program you are participating in. I have not done this, but hope to soon. It is my favorite charity.

Two good books I haven't seen mentioned are "The New Seedstarters Handbook", by Nancy Bubel. It also has good info on saving seeds. Also, "Build it Better Yourself", put out by Rodale Press. This has lots of info about building farm structures like chicken houses, cold frames, concrete projects, fences, repairing old outbuildings, etc. Also valuable because it will give you a pretty good idea of which tools you will need to start collecting.

Thanks for the Fukuoka link Bart. I love his books and his philosophy. I will definitely be looking that one up. Funny, I've run a search on him before, but came up with nothing.

Hello, I'm new but have some observations. I bought a small ranch 10 years ago. I'm in a river bottom in a very out of the way location, five miles from a small ranching community (population 125). I now have two good mules, a good horse, chickens that lay eggs daily, some beef, a couple of dogs and some cats to control the mice which can be a problem. I grow a garden, approximately 40 feet by 60 feet. Since the elevation here is 7000 feet I'm a bit limited in what will grow but have found that beets, carrots, spinache, beans, and other greens do very well. My water comes from a self contained, gravity fed, irrigation system that I own with my neighbors. My house water comes from a well. The soil is good, and there are few rocks. My garden produces way more than I can eat and so I've made it a co-op with some neighbors who help with the work. So far I've used a Roto-tiller but this next year I plan to purchase a horse drawn plow and cultivator. I've experimented with cattle and have found them to be a good source of protein and meat. I borrow a neighbor's bull. I sell my steers in the fall. This coming year I also plan to build a cold cellar and a canning shed with a wood cook stove. It will be a simple affair with counters covered with tin and meat hooks for preparing beef and wild game (elk and deer). There are an abundance of trout in the creek that runs through the place. I'm nearly self sufficient and could be totally self sufficient if the need arises. What I'm saying is it can be done, but there is lots of work involved. I've built this place from nothing. My house is small, 700 square feet and I heat with wood with propane backup. I can do without the propane. I have coal oil lanterns and am not dependent upon electricity although I have a connection. I'm a ham radio operator and can link with my neighbors via a community uhf channel. In my spare time I explore the surrounding country primarily for the purpose of determining the best areas to hunt. although I'm not a hunter but could be if the need arises. I earn money working as a wrangler and a cowboy, again, good experience. I've become a good packer and I now have a good idea how to raise and train mules. Mules beat horses because they are more versatile and hardy but you have to know what you're doing to get along with them and preferably should raise your own. Good mules are never for sale, just the rank critters that might kick your head off.

It is possible to live on a farm and learn to farm for a summer or longer - I did it in 2003. You can contact New England Workers on Organic Farms (Belchertown, MA and they are actually well beyond New England including a lot in NY and PA). Or alternatively just move to Amish Country.

can you take fruits and vegetables that you have purchased from the grocery store, and clean the seeds refriderate for couple days and then save to plant into your garden..I was just wondering I am doing this with and of the fruits and veggies we have not consumed and they are just at the point of throwing out and have saved all of the seed..

Probably not. Most stuff you buy in the store – in fact most seed packages you get from the store are hybrids. They are produced from 2 different strains to provide ‘hybrid vigor’ which give great advantage but the seeds of hybrids won’t produce the same crop they came from – if any at all.

You can order ‘open pollinated’ seed from many places: seedsavers, johnnysseeds. There is a thread about this somewhere, search for ‘open pollinated’.

If you're in the Northeastern US, I can strongly recommend Fedco Seeds. They've got a fantastic catalog, are cooperatively managed, and have lots of open-pollinated and heirloom varieties. Also, potatoes, trees, cover crops, etc.

Fedco Seeds

- roebuck

would love to but i am in northern ontairo canada..we may have alot of lakes here, but not any farms or farmers..I would have to drive 4-6 hours south just see abarn...lol..the only place we have where I am is a canadian tire store that sells seeds...and they are expensive that was why I was going to try produce seeds

Bountiful Gardens sells heirloom seeds and they are really cheap. Most of the seeds I bought were only $1.50 a package.

The only thing I can suggest otherwise is that we see if there is any interest on the board here for sharing and exchanging seed. Mind you there are seed sharing boards you can apparently become a member of.

With the push for corporations to hybridize plants and exterminate heirloom seeds there are more and more people wanting to spread what they see as our god given right to food.

I thought the same thing UE, a dozen seeds in an envelope with a .32 (or whatever) stamp.

I have some heirloom tomato, and OP bean and corn seeds and could dry some summer squash seeds out if you think they would grow way up yonder Kelee?

Well for shits and giggles I've been growing pepper plants from seeds out of grocery store peppers. The vast majority of them have been yellow or red peppers but there are some hot peppers in there as well. I don't sort the seeds I throw them in a bowl and let them dry. Anyways back in early april I went and poured a couple hundred seeds into a row 4 feet long. I also planted about 20 seeds in little pots inside. They all germinated just fine, the inside ones came up in a few weeks and got to be about 6 inches tall in 2 months. the outside ones came up late may and are only an inch or so tall. But having so many so close together they almost look like a carpet. The outside ones are taking a beating it looks like, most of their leaves are being chewed as quickly as they are coming up, but I noticed the inside ones did the same when little. Anyways no fruit yet, and they are sickly looking compaired to the actual pepper plants I bought at a nursery. We'll see, I'm having fun with them though.

I also planted garlic from the grocery store, it's doing fine and I have too much garlic.

I believe that potatoes will grow if you see them sprout at all, and the organic section is the best place to get ones that will grow. I bought seed potatoes though, much cheaper for the number you get.

I've also planted raw sunflower seeds in some areas, they're growing as well.

If you're serious about getting food from a garden though buy real heirloom seeds. I'm just doing it to see what happens.

There are non-hybrids sold – real “Beefsteak” tomatoes aren’t if they are real Beefsteaks for example. It’s just that hybrids have so many advantages for a commercial grower that I’d imagine most store-bought produce is hybrid.

As far as that goes you might actually get fruit to set but it probably won’t be like what you got the seed from, or the plant itself won’t be strong, etc. etc.

For a couple bucks you can get an ounce of proven seed that has and will continue to grow food for generations – forever in fact, not a bad investment when you think of it.

Maybe that’s why they call it “seed money”.

I'd be interested to hear how those peppers do strider just for fun.

I have to agree that most of the produce in the market has been hybridized to promote traits that are advantageous to the marketers. Some of these traits would be long shelf life, ease of shipping, resistance to disease and greater productivity. The plants grown from their seeds probably won't produce the same fruits/ vegetables that you bought in the store. Some may even be mules that are infertile.

Like Strider, I planted some peppers seeds that I got from supermarket stock, but they were from sundried Mexican peppers, three varieties, and two types of Thai hot peppers. I think these might be older varieties that could bear good fruits, especially the Thai- I had a hard time finding them and paid dearly for fresh ones at a specialty market.

To make the experiment more interesting and to insure that I get some hot pepper crop I order the same variety of Thai peppers from Baker Creek Heirloom Seed Co. http://rareseeds.com/catlisting.php?cat=123

I also bought far too many other vegetable seeds to use this year and would be happy to share some.

Another supplier I wanted to buy from is Seeds of Change:
http://seedsofchange.com/

They have a great selection of heirlooms and I like their philosophy. Alas, the catalog came too late and I ended up buying from the other company. Not disappointed in what I got, just wanted to promote a deeper commitment to sustainability.

Anyone with tips on seed saving and/or info on cross-pollitation of heirlooms please contribute your wisdom.

-Charlotte

My aunty Dell planted some seeds from an ordinary red commercial tomato and spread the seedlings around her garden. Now she's getting a weird variety of tomatoes, some edible and some not as much. One was green still when ripe and had a bulbous ridged surface like a garlic bulb, but she says it tastes OK.