A lot of people posting here appear to believe that they can survive off their land and stockpiles of goods through years of peak oil.

I don't veiw that as realistic.

For those that believe their farms / land provide them security, I'd suggest looking up eminent domain :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eminent_domain

"In United States law, eminent domain is the power of the state to appropriate private property for its own use without the owner's consent."

This concept was recently reinforced and extended by the Supreme Court. It now extends to industries which a town or city believes will benefit the common good - can take your land. Big agricultural collectives are likely to be looking for farms during peak oil. Govornment will be looking to feed its constituents.

Democracy was described by Thomas Jefferson as two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. I guess the question is, are you the wolf or the sheep?

It's quite unrealistic to believe that 95% of the population in cities will starve to death while the other 5% live off the land. Even though this is a democracy, anything you own can be taken by the state for the benefit of the majority. Property in particular. The masses will demand it. Another word for this is Fascism (industry and govornment working hand in hand, where all personal rights are void in the face of the good of the state).

I think if you want to see the world of the near future, all you need to is research Nazi Germany. No it won't be focused on racism or hate of a particular group, but it will be fascism. It will ruthlessly put down any who are perceived to be a threat to the state. And the people will support it, because they have to for their collective survival.

So the question becomes, what do you do to survive in an environment where land is not inviolate and the masses in the city project their will via the govornment?

I don't disagree with you...but there are ways of hiding in plain sight!

Just look around...i'll bet you can find small clumps of woods you drive by on the highway that nobody ever goes to.

There is always a way (provided you're looking for it).

Yes, I've often brought up these points to our survivalist friends here. Not only can your land be confiscated, but your food stores, gold and whatever else the Feds deem necessary. The other good point is that no matter how well armed you are, you will lose in a conflict with the Feds. Face it; we are the property of the US government.

I think a better strategy is to concentrate on the here and now. Remain active in day to day life, especially politically active. Be active and well known in you community. If the more severe peak oil scenarios happen, we will need each other more than anything.

A hard crash where civilization collapses quickly favors the survialists. If everything goes to hell quickly the Feds won't have time to seize very many farms. They will be busy putting down riots in every population center in America. A slow soft landing will give the Feds time to seize everything and set up a neo-Feudalism or Fascist government.

You can choose to "face that" if you wish. Personally, I gleefully choose death over tyranny. But nobody has put a gun to my head and asked me to make that choice yet, so I still think we have a bit to go to get to your hyperbolic point. *grin*

However, I note a downward trend...

Short of a massive natural disaster, I just find this extremely unlikely in the near future. If peak oil turns out to be 100% true, and starting now, a scenario like a 'hard crash' would probably be 20+ years in the future.

I would point out places like North Korea, where the people eat grass to live, don't have riots - certainly nothing that would endanger the govornment.

When I mentioned researching Nazi Germany, I was actually quite serious. Read what Winston Churchill wrote about the rise of Nationalism and Hitler in Germany if you want to know what happens when people are afraid, and have lost confidence and pride in their govornment - the mechanisms that motivate them and how easily they are manipulated. The first book is titled "The Second World War, Vol 1 : The Gathering Storm"

The government will ignore most of us in the country, especially the apparently poor and shabby, and the remote. As mentioned above, they will be busy trying to keep the cities organised.

Same old question of why put out the effort, same old response - after they take my out of the way place what are they going to do with it? If cousin Jethro knew how to farm he would have a farm and have his hands full. If I were stupid enough to own a place favorable for big Ag to acquire and be profitable then I would not have been able to afford it in the first place.

If I produce food for the folks that sat on their ass and whined about all the reasons they could do nothing and did nothing until even I had to feed them then I am an asset to those people, no?

My option is to do what you are doing I suppose. What is it you are doing actually? Obviously you don’t have any possessions that are worth taking. Are you waiting in the city to demand my land be taken, or that I work to feed you?

Jeez, I get tired of the attitude that all is lost and I haven’t done shit, and if someone tries to do something it’s futile because the big bad Man will take it and so I’ll just sit here, whine and tell everyone else to sit and whine too! At least the German Jews had the gumption to try.


I guess the answer to your final question is to sit there with your head up your monitor and do nothing - at least that way you haven’t wasted any energy.

(yes I previewed this before submitting)

Yeah!!! What Pops said!!!

Give him Hell, Pops!

It's better to try and fail then die from hopelessness and inaction.

I read somewhere that back in the 1930's the U.S. federal government compelled citizens to turn in gold bullion at a price fixed by the government.

This was repealed in the 1970's the article said.

I was surprised, as I thought American citizens had the right to property.

Nor can I understand the rationale for this manouver.

Some of the most dire predictions forcast after the peak oil might decline at 10% a year. That would cut world oil output in half in just seven years from 84mbd to around 40mpd. The results would be disasterous, it would cause and an almost instant hard crash Easter Island style.

This does not make any sense. So then the government will take all the food and land away from the farmer to feed people in the cities. The farmer will starve and then who will grow more food? What's to stop all the farmers from moving to the cities? If there is a food shortage, why would the government want to eliminate farmers? I could see maybe a tax in the form of food.

Government confiscation of private property works when the government can isolate one or a few property owners. Other property owners do not come to the assistance of those being attacked by the government because it is not worth it to them.

Were government, on a wholesale basis, to try to take farms, or farm surplus from farmers, they likely would see open rebellion.

I suspect that shady28 does not live in a rural area or understand rural culture.

Even tyrannies need farms and farmers (Nazis liked to eat, look at Goebbels big belly), the old feudal system was based on farms, so I don't think there's a big threat to farmers even in a tyranny. In fact, look at modern Cuba, they want people to be as self sufficient as possible. So, if you're only concern is that Big Brother may take your farm, that concern is way down on the list.

Everyone here thinks in extremes, either quick collapse or instant tyranny, but what about the inbetween, like a recession or a depression, what are you going to do then? Having a garden may not be such a bad idea if you can't afford the grocery story. Milk and eggs are getting pretty expensive these days, and for under $200, you can buy a dairy goat and a few laying hens. In the Great Depression, a majority of Americans still lived in rural areas and were able to grow gardens, which kept most people alive. Same may be true today.

I think its nonsensical to suggest that people shouldn't learn to be more self sufficient. Being more self sufficient helps reduce our need for oil, bc we grow more locally and import less. Being a little more self sufficient is a win/win for the individual and society. Its worked in Cuba, it can work here.