Actually no one suggested that doing nothing was the answer. Pops was the one who said that was suggested - it wasnt. He has made an argument where none existed. It has been the ASSumption of people here that that was the point. Another ASSumption is that it would be best to sit in a city during the final stages of decline from the oil peak (which, i might point out, is probably 20 years off even by pessimistic assumptions). Read the OP, there is a question there that it is obvious the answer to isnt coming from very many on this board.

I simply believe that the world is *not* going to end in a catastrophic crash, even if that 'crash' is spread out over a year or two. Right now, i see the most important things as being:

1 - reduce debt (I btw, have no debt)
2 - reduce any expenses (my expenses are about 1/3 my income, and I could reduce that significantly if i wanted (cell phone, insurance, etc could be cancelled))
3 - prepare for short periods of resource outages (anyone can do this, all it takes is a closet, a few gas cans, a portable solar panel, rechargable batteries - probably $500 investment total)
4 - put yourself in a job position or profession that is not likely to go away in the first few waves of job losses

I would point out the fact that anyone who doesn't have the things covered, and is sitting on 'land', is likely to not have their land anymore after the first throes of economic disruption. They won't be able to pay their mortgage, or their taxes. Society will still function largely as it does for a long time yet, and people who cannot pay their bills will wind up homeless - just as they do right now.

I've actually been prepared for economic crisis long before peak oil became an issue. The bubble market of the late 90s prompted that. Peak oil, i might point out, could very easily turn out to be a psychologocial phenomenon that is not uncommon at market peaks. Mass psychology is a major factor in market movement, and the tendancy of people to 'fear' is most prominent just after market peaks.

The first things to look for here will be a series of major market declines, higher unemployment, and financial crises probably starting overseas. Once that happens, the price of oil will plummet as growth goes negative and demand dries up. It's likely to stay low for years, and peak oil will disappear from the radar screen. Whether PO was the cause or not won't really matter for a long time.

The reason is quite simple and it has happened before. The most critical period will be the next 10 years - and the most important things will be having a job, being out of debt, having low expenses, and having diversified investments in things that hold value (not stocks - things like bonds and treasuries, later on things like gold, and much later maybe things like guns and bullets).




By the time the world gets to the point where its necessary to live off the land again, ownership will be a matter of who controls the land, not a peice of paper at the county clerks office. You seem to think that people will turn to savages and kill each other in the city, but for some reason they wont just kill that old man and take his land - but rather trade their valuable services to him. That sort of barter system would probably happen, but not until peak oil and in fact oil burnout is a long past historical oddity.

I don't recall saying anywhere that I thought people in the cities would turn to savages and kill each other. The fact of the matter is I have no idea what people really will do should it get this far.

For that matter, I don't believe you do either, irrespective of your arrogant belief of the greatness and wisdom of your convictions. Unless you've got some kind of crystal ball somewhere deciphering everything, you have as much idea as anyone else what is going to happen. So I take your statements regarding what to look for as worth what it cost me, which is next to nothing (a bit of my time, which I value).

I further find it interesting that your 13 posts here, most of which have been on this particular thread, have made you a peak oil expert. All we have to do is follow your instructions and we'll be in good steed. For myself, I believe what I believe, but I have learned a lot from many of the people who post here. When I first started thinking about peak oil a couple of years ago, up until now, I thought I knew quite a bit. When I got here and several other sites I realize there were angles I never even considered.

Your quoting of my post was out of context, since I wasn't referring to anything on this thread, but rather adding commentary to another person's post on something completely different (go back and re-read it).

If you're aiming for someplace where people are going to stand up and shout "Hallelujah" because you're right and you've just enlightened everyone, I think you're wandering around the wrong place. You're trying hard to show everyone here the error of their ways and their thinking, and impress them with your greatness, and I suspect you're doing little more than pissing people off. This, however, is just my opinion.

There are hordes of neo-barbarians living in cities today. They have no clue as to how life works and will be angry, desperate and savage when supplies dwindle. One only needs to look to Compton in LA or the NYC black outs of the last century to get a foretaste of events to come.

Pops!! not true!!

Pa Ingalls was not a very good farmer, but he was a talented hunter and trapper

many times in the little house books, Pa would mention that the settlers were moving in, he felt crowded and game was getting scarce..it was time to move on

Laura shared her father's love of the frontier, but Ma Ingalls wanted to settle, so Pa kept trying, but he just wasnt a great farmer

Laura confirmed this when Alonzo proposed marriage...

she was reluctant to live on a farm, telling him that she wasnt a farm girl, she was a "frontier girl"

in the end, love won and she settled on farm life with Alonzo, he was a much better farmer and even then they had many hardships

throughout it all, the Ingalls family loved each other deeply and remained faithful to their values

gosh its been so long since i read the Little House series

maybe its time to read them again

oh one more thing

Pa Ingalls had daughters, if he had sons, he would have been much more successful as a farmer

its impossible for one man to do it all

I knew that would get a rise from somebody!

My wife daughters and grand daughters love the little house books. My wife’s birthday present this year was a trip to Laura Ingles Wilder’s home in Mansfield, Mo. We had a long talk with our 5 yr old granddaughter on the way back who has had 2 or 3 of the books read to her but couldn’t figure out why the pictures of Pa in the museum didn’t look like Michael Landon!

I’ve mentioned several times that the little house books are a great way for kids to learn that there really was life before Disney and DVDs.

Sorry for getting OT.

You need to distinguish size and type of farms. The large industrial farms that feed America are already components of a corporate/govenment Food-Facist state. Ever wonder why you live in a suburbun ghetto and a million miles from the land.

The physical infrastructure that defines our modern industrial state was set up specifically to support the movement of farm commodities between the giant farms, processors (Cargil, ADM, Smithfield, Hormel, etc.), manufacturers (Kraft Phillip Morris), supermarket chains (Safeway etc.), and restaurant franchises (McDonalds etc). The establishment and maintenance of this system was mediated by a number of corrupt goverment agencies in the department of Commerce (Transportation, FDA, USDA, EPA etc.) It has already nearly destroyed our 500 years of agrarian tradition and popular democracy.

This system will continue to operate much as it has post-peak. You will continue to be fed and entertained.

pete

The Great Depression (1932-1941) coincided with the beginnings of the Oil Age and Industrial Agriculture-tractors, giant combines, deep well irrigation etc. Before the Depression farming was 90% of workforce.

If so, doesn't the demise of oil and machinery suggest the opposite? A Great Expansion? Golden Years? An Agrarian Jeffersonian Democracy blooming in the Red Poppy Fields of Flanders. Oh, the beauty of it

pete

--

It is one thing to plant a vegetable garden. It is a completely different matter to live from it. According to the US Departrment of Agriculture people require 1 pound each fruit and vegetables per day, 2 cups grain, 28 grams protein and various oils. This translates to in addition to the veggies:
--3 orchard trees/person/year (and the storage to keep fruit after harvest)
--1/4 acre grains/person/year
--4 chickens and feed and 300 sq.ft/person for eggs daily or;
--about 5 dressed and preserved lambs/person/year
--1/4 acre oil crops (rapeseed, corn, soy, etc.) and nut trees/person/year

don't mean to dissuade you. If the SHTF the government and the giant food processors will probably feed us. We're easier to control fat and happy. But the quality may be spotty-think high school cafeteria. I certainly am going to have a small plot somewhere for that occasional fresh strawberry or fresh lettuce

pete

--

It's quite possible to produce an entire diet from a garden, if you have enough square footage. Gardens are generally much more productive than fields for the amount of space used.

Boy I sure hope so . Actually, we may get tired of the lack of variety, but I think you're right. It could be done. Now, whether I could do it completely, I dont know.

One thing I did think of, though, was that a source of fruit needn't necessarily only be orchard trees (which can be a large investment). We have, for example, strawberries and blackberries, along with wild persimmons and wild plums (and muscadines, though I haven't found them in the woods yet - I know they're out there). Often there are other wild berries growing in woods near your house that wouldn't even cross my mind. Think outside the box. We put much of these up each year and use them throughout the year.

Can them or freeze them, or dehydrate them. There's your year- round fruit supply.
Kathy

wild foods in my 1/2 acre yard that I've located so far and I haven't been hunting

salmon berries - a few maybe 1 lb at best over a year
black berries - lots, I'll be cut to hell picking them long before I get them all
thimble berries - taste like crap to me but they have nutritional value and some like them
raspberries - a few once again more then the salmon berries anyways
acorns - technically they aren't in my yard, but noone ever goes into the land back there so I claim them
ferns - I didn't know you could eat the young heads but they are expensive at the grocery store. I will stop weed wacking them if food looks like it could become an issue in the near future

there are grouse in my back yard at times, and the occasional deer. Rabbits are common. Hunting isn't my strength but I'll be getting a firearms licence and a shotgun in the near future. Maybe a 22 as well, I always liked firing the 22. My gf says she can handle anything I can catch and If I can't shoot something she can.

as for the no skils gardening I'm a prime example. I took an existing empty garden, added seeds and young plants (both at the wrong times I'm told) and watered. The tomatoes are amazing, the strawberries are pathetic but I'm told will be better next year. The potatoes may not be deep enough in the ground and may have rotted due to the insane amounts of rain this year. The onions are great, The spinach didn't even come up.
The apple tree is existing and doing amazing.

Anyways I know that I can't survive off of this alone but it will get me far further then having nothing at all. And I'm not a farm worth emptying or taking over. I'm just a large old lot at the very ends of suburbia up here. I've decided to put almost everything into this house with the hopes that I don't lose it. If I do then I'm not much worse off then if I did nothing.

Ecology Action publishes some very helpful pamphlets describing complete diets and the amount of land needed to grow them, with charts showing the nutrients and calories. These are very helpful for planning, even if you don't use their Biointensive methods for growing the food.

Booklet 15: One Basic Mexican Diet

Booklet 25: One Basic Kenyan Diet: With Diet, Income & Compost Crop Designs in a Three Growing-Bed Learning Model

This book:

How To Grow More Vegetables,
Fruit, Nuts, Berries, Grains and Other Crops
Than You Ever Thought Possible on Less Land Than You Can Imagine by John Jeavons

is also very helpful for planning, because it has charts showing the potential yield in pounds of various crops, as well as basic nutrients and calories for many crops.

http://www.bountifulgardens.org/shop/gb ... apers.html