You write intelligently, but in this case you are showing your ignorance about the very cases you are writing about. 1 agent was killed at Ruby Ridge and 4 were killed at Waco.

For myself, I have never claimed to have a farm worth taking, since I'm guessing I'm probably lumped into the "Ruby Ridgers". What I have claimed is that my small parcel of land on the side of the mountain ain't worth anyone taking, especially since they'd have to come out here and get it. Regardless, if they did come, I'd rather be a Ruby Ridger than wandering in the desert trying to eat grass. I guess it all depends on whether you're a "survive at all costs" type or not. I guess I'd rather go down with the ship, because I'm not interested in starving to death or scrounging for food. But to each their own. I have no illusions that I'm going to hold off an army coming to get me, but I might be able to take out some food scroungers or a couple of BTF guys.

Wrong.



In that case exactly who will they replace me with?




I don’t own that much and I live right here. Apparently you didn’t get that though I mentioned it a couple of times.




And so since you don’t suggest staying in the city, where do you suggest?




I’m not quite sure what “how they work means” or how you came to the conclusion that by arguing against your idea that I should be relieved of my land and someone more ‘favorable’ should be put in my stead makes me a fascist; could you clarify?



OK, I agree with your main point.



Did I say that? I don’t think so:


Nope.




Agreed, but we didn’t really figure out the ‘history bears this out’ thing.



See, that’s the big leap from the concept of “land is not inviolate” to “What’s the point?” If “partnering with the state” means the same as “selling my stuff and paying 30% to the state as tribute” then I guess I’ve already ‘partnered’ - haven't you?





Another fine summation, kudos.

Shady - what's it to you what other people are doing? Why do you give a rat's ass?

This land use & location discussion is real interesting. Unfortunately, I came across Peak Oil recently, so my preparations look pretty weak. Presently we are living on 1 suburban acre in a state with high population density (678 people /sq mile). I guess find myself to be almost an urbanite, but I am not too pleased about it. Our pantry is more well stocked than a normal household, but that's about all I managed to do so far. Recently the wife has become more receptive to P.O., which helps.

We do some gardening, probably should expand that a bit, but being independent wasn't even a thought when we embarked on this American Dream in the 'burbs.

I do agree with the farmers & maybe even the eco-commies, it would be good to take the high road and try to produce something. Sure, there's a chance evil folks could take it from you in a fast crash, but in a slower scenario it could work for a while.

However, I don't see being able to move my small family to a more rural locale without incurring more debt & messing up my employment situation. I hate to create my own personal crash by being hasty.

It 's always hard to predict the future, but I can't imagine there are good times ahead for big cities like New York & Boston. I hope we don't get caught in the fallout.

Just thought you might want to read the ramblings of someone who is largely unprepared, but getting kind of uneasy. If things get really bad, I might consider a "Ruby Ridge" style act of defiance. Hate to give up without a fight.

The wife hates that kind of talk-

Best of luck to all- we may have more time remianing than you think (I hope)

kochevnik, you do have a point. Flexibility is the key. However, I do not have unlimited resources at my disposal. I can make a plan A, B, C & D, and have. That being said, most all of my eggs are in this basket. I would be here whether I was aware of Peak Oil or not. It just so happens that it may indeed be a good place for me to be in the future with PO coming down the pike.

Shady,

First things first. Since you didn't answer the question as to your origin, I will clarify why it was asked, and hopefully help you out. It's spelled g-o-v-e-r-n-m-e-n-t. Hope that helps.

And, since several others, including Pops, have asked - and have yet to receive an answer, I'll ask again.

It seems you keep telling everyone that you AREN'T saying this, and you AREN't saying that... you AREN'T saying it's better to stay in cities, that you AREN'T an urbanite,.... okay then.... if everyone else is wrong, and you are right, then what ARE your plans? If it is such a flawed idea to try to gain some level of self-reliance, and if we are all doomed to failure, confrontation with the government, confiscation of our lands, and horrible deaths, then pray tell, what would be a better plan?

You have criticized the idea of trying to take care of yourself, but at the same time, you have said that you are not advocating standing in the proverbial bread line waiting for a handout. Please clarify. If those aiming for a small, somewhat self-reliant "homestead" (for lack of a better term) are doomed in your opinion, then what do you feel would be the best approach to take as an alternative?

Kathy

How many of you are actually producing enough on your farms that you won't be hungry if the infrastructure around you collapses? My biggest concern while watching posts on this board is that inexperienced people will get stars in their eyes and think they can grow enough to "live off the land." It takes a great deal of skill and experience to grow crops to feed a family - or a person. You can't just show up on your acres and suddenly produce enough food to feed yourself. (You guys are probably all too young to have watched "Green Acres" huh?) Farming seems to have a "no special skills required" reputation here. Both my grandfathers were farmers, and my parents raised huge gardens every year - I have a garden right now that gets lots of compliments, but I am realistic enough to know that if my pantry runs dry in peak oil - my family is going to get terribly skinny if they rely on what I grow to survive. Even if I had a hundred acres, I don't have the skills or training to turn that hundred acres into breakfast, lunch, and dinner . . . So I have to agree with Shady28 "A lot of people posting here appear to believe that they can survive off their land and stockpiles of goods through years of peak oil. I don't veiw that as realistic."

And frankly I don't think it will really matter if the government takes most of our land. Even Pa Ingalls went to town to buy supplies. . .

Hopefully, the internet will still work and those of you on this board who have some farming knowledge will give the rest of us starving people tutorials. Then at least if the government shows up to take the land - the soldiers will have some snacks.

Laurie

I haven't experienced that here. Folks are often talking about how difficult it is to get the work done and how they need to learn more skills. I know I do, I'm just getting started. So, like I say, I haven't gotten the impression anyone is saying it doesn't take special skills. I think most of us are studying quite hard, both theoretical study and hands-on study. I spend 4 - 6 hours a day working outside in the gardens, and I'm currently raising only maybe 15% of my food needs. I think some other folks here are doing much better than that.

Laurie,
I have watched a good many episodes of Green Acres and I most certainly agree. The time to try to begin to climb the steep learning curve is not after the panic sets in. That is why I have been advocating for at least the last year (since I have been a member of these forums) that if you plan to do it, start NOW learning what you can and doing what you can with what you have. I don't think anyone has implied or said that there are "no special skills required" in farming. In fact, the opposite has been said many, many times on these forums. You can follow my own progress and failures in my efforts just by reading through many of my posts. I have learned a lot in the last year, and as I have said, there is much I still need to learn.

I know for fact that I certainly do not know all there is to know about farming. No even close. I also depend heavily on my friends, family, neighbors and many others for their knowledge, help, and support. I do not think it can be done completely alone. You're right - even Pa Ingalls had to go to town to do some trading on occasion. What I do know, is that I can provide a good deal of my family's needs that I will not have to depend on others to provide. This small degree of self-reliance will, if nothing else, save us some money for those things that we cannot produce ourselves, and must buy or depend on others for.

If I cannot supply all of our needs, that does not mean I should not try to do what I can. If I have excess squash, or eggs, or can sew clothing, or quilt, for example, I may be able to sell these to others who do not have them - or perhaps I can trade for something I do need. Pa Ingalls may have traded a skill, or an item he produced. I try to do the same.

It all boils down to this for me. I can either sit by and do nothing - hoping things will work out for me and mine - or I can do what I can do to try to make our futures better. If I fail, at least I have not failed to try.

Kathy

Farms provide shelter and most importantly food, without which one cannot live.

As food is likely to be scarce when TSHF I can't for the life of me think of a better place to be.

The state may take some of your produce to distribute to the shiftless and unworthy but you will be allowed to keep enough to survive on, which is always nice.

Providing you're a good little citizen and do as your asked they probably won't shoot you because you know about farming; which is more than can be said for the hordes of starving computer programmers, insurance executives and soccer moms they've got on their hands.

Get a farm, go organic, practice permaculture and you just might end up being a powerful feudal lord, or a least a powerful feudal peasant.

That's fair, Laurie.

Personally I have only been on this place (40ac in SW MO) for 10 months – and the climate is a far cry from what I’m used to (Cent. CA).

However in that time I’ve enough storable food such as corn, beans, etc growing to last a year - if the harvest comes in, 13 head of cattle (150 – 600lbs), a winters worth of hay and firewood, plus cockerels, pullets and a pet lamb (as long as the grand-daughter is around) and innumerable other projects going.

I try at every opportunity however to describe my pratfalls and problems as well as my successes. The caveat is that I came from a farm and though I did the rat race thing for many years I always had a garden, small animals, etc. and I have been contemplating this life for many years - PO and other situations have enabled/prompted me to pursue this course.

Anyone can easily trace my progress since I joined this board over a year ago and gauge the progression should they wish. If they are honest with themselves regarding their abilities they can easily decide, it seems to me, whether they are capable of attempting the same.

Am I self-sufficient? No, I will never be, and I share your concern that some might think it easy to survive off a subdivision lot with no effort or learning curve. On the other hand, the reason I have such a passion for this particular topic (i.e.: providing for yourself and yours from your own efforts) and the reason I argue so adamantly against those who blithely dismiss it, is that I believe not only is it a very doable way to cope with possible future problems, it is a way to pass a more sustainable way of life to our offspring.

Which is somewhat more important than mere survival I think.

(BTW, Pa Ingalls was a ner' do well that could never stick in one place long enough to make a go!

Sorry, just had to giggle your chain! )

Oh man! Kathy, Ludi and me all quoted that same line of Laurie’s and proceeded to tell how inept we are.

Time to take us to the Failed Farmers Gulag!

This was an excellent post to which I would like to add my commentary.



This is exactly what I used to spend my time telling to all my co-workers about organics, conservation, et al. The biggest thing I used to hear all the time is "if you're so big on conservation how come you drove to work", or "you know Taco Bell's not organic". In other words, since you can't do everything, then it's pointless to do anything. This is an idiotic frame of mind. If your choice is starve or try and grow some food, wouldn't most rational people try the food growing, even if it didn't produce enough?



This is an excellent point that I think many have missed. You may not necessarily have to be a farmer to survive such an apocalyptic world. Maybe you can do carpentry, or sew clothes, or chop down trees, or just have a strong back to drag crops in, or maybe you relieve people's misery or sorrow by being a songster or a comedian. It is not going to be as if everyone can do everything themselves. You might be a whiz at growing a crop, but be so old or decrepit that you can't even get the crop in from the field before it rots where it stands. What do you do? You trade some of it for some help.



This is my hope. One of the reasons I keep hanging around this forum (aside from the usual paranoia and nihilism ) is that there are a lot of really smart people here that know things I don't know, or see things in a way that I haven't seen them. If you can learn, you're going to be better off in the version of society we have been discussing, than if you're just a dumbass.

"The city, which should be the symbol and center of civilization, can also be made to function as a concentration camp. This is one of the significant discoveries of contemporary political science." --Ed Abbey / Desert Solitaire

I'm afraid so. When PO hits evacuate all important persons and property from the cities then no one gets out.

Let nature take its course and send digging equipment and truckloads of lime in under military protection from time to time to create the mass-graves.

I can see this happening, especially in the 3rd world.

The alternative is to let hordes of starving urbanites screw up the farming sector so everyone dies.

You have to be cruel to be kind. Come to think of it you have to be cruel to be cruel too.

Welcome to the 21st century.

I'll concur with the comment in regards that farming is not a "no special skills required" profession. In fact you probably have to be extra skillfull to run a multi crop, multi staged biointensive farming operation. I have been studying up on this, and hope to get into an internship program for some serious hands-on experience, before I would ever consider going out on my own and trying to "farm".

Then, despite my intention of farming, I still plan on being involved in planning, though not in the traditional municipal job form. Rather I hope to take an activist outsider role. I dont plan on being a survivalist farmer. I do plan on trying to grow enough to feed myself and others. Income gained from that type of transaction would be used to patronize local establishments or individuals. I'd be amenable to a local currency idea and would trade time or some unspecified credits for food that I produced or assistance that I gave another person.

Basically, I hoped to be plugged into a small community that can or will adapt to the greatly altered future.