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 Post subject: Ideas
New postPosted: Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:51 pm 
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Have you heard of Earth Ships? Made from tires filled with earth. If you read about these the people have looked at many environmental issues.

I don't expect a sudden decline but do think it is possible. I am not thinking I need a BOB.

My brother and I are looking at pooling our resources. Getting some land outside of town. Building earthship type structures.

I had the idea of using wind power to pump from a well. Then getting the water up the hill with another windmill so there would be head pressure. The head pressure can be used to supply pressure to bathing and cleaning etc.

With the earth ships water can be stored in 55 gallon barrels and then the heat radiates at night to keep the home warmer. This warm water can also be used for showers if pumped up to a higher storage area so head pressure is there.

A toilet will function with some head pressure. Again the wind mill providing pressure. If a hill isn't available than a tank elevated and pump up to with a windmill can provide the flush we all are so accustomed too.

They have thought of many things and this is the direction I plan to go.
http://www.earthships.com/

I am glad you began this thread. I want to know what I will build and be prepared so when I do purchase land I can begin my juorney there.

I really do hope that the decline is slower and people can adjust so our children have a good life.


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: Sun May 30, 2004 4:20 pm 
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I've researched a number of these so-called alternative construction methods and many of them just come down to this: weak masonry.

The earthship concept is a nice way to dispose of waste tires. Waste tires can also be burned for energy in a high-tech plant. But using them as stackable forms for compacted-earth masonry really strikes me as putting the theoretical cart before the practical horse. Compressing earth into a flexible toroidal form virtually guarantees uneven compressive strength as a building material. Tires are full of nasty chemicals you don't want leaching into your living space. Tire fires can occur underground as well as aboveground, and emit huge quantities of toxic smoke and are notoriously hard to extinguish. So if your earthship catches fire for any reason, you end up with an uninhabitable patch of land.

Really, few things are quite as efficient as well-designed concrete and sustainably-harvested timber.

Well-designed concrete means among other things, the lowest possible ratio of water to cementitious materials (w/cm ratio), and the use of pozzolanic admixtures such as fly ash or rice-hull ash, all of which are currently supplied to readymix producers in commercial quantities and quality. You can specify "fly-ash concrete" or "rice-hull ash concrete" with a desired slump and compressive strength, and your local readymix company will be glad to oblige because it costs them less than using only portland cement as the cementitious material. By specifying strength and slump, you get exactly the engineering characteristics you need for a project, and the RM producer has to figure out the mix design to meet your specs.

I've also designed some remote-site concrete production systems that are specifically intended for use where power supply is limited, so you could theoretically produce energy-efficient concrete "on the farm" (you still have to import the portland cement and pozzolanic admixtures). In fact, properly designed and applied, concrete is more energy efficient than conventional timber for most applicable cases. In harsh climates where building underground or earth-sheltered housing is desirable, energy-efficient concrete is also the most waterproof concrete, so you get a convergence of two beneficial characteristics.

Though of course, for above-ground structures, sustainably harvested timber is still going to be your predominant structural material for practical reasons as well as energy throughput.


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:42 pm 
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I'm bringing this thread back alive.

I am going to seriously consider building an earthship. I will let you know what my research turns up. And if anyone has anything to add, please do so.

I also think it's a good investment even if PO were a myth. One thing is true, energy prices will continue to escalate if it's only due to incessant demand.


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 Post subject: JJ sez
New postPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:47 pm 
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Julian,

I'm looking forward to your findings. I see Linc has given this a Topic of its own.

Maybe Straw Bale will be next...

along with Earth Sheltered Housing....

and then, Wendesday's ideas.

I should probably call the Taos, NM folks back and see if they're interested in contributing directly now.

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Last edited by EnviroEngr on Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: My View
New postPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 5:52 pm 
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EnemyCombatant,

FYI --

Post 1: http://www.peakoil.com/post47505.html#47505

Post 2: http://www.peakoil.com/post72702.html#72702

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| Whose reality is this anyway!? |
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 Post subject: underground building
New postPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:58 am 
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I'd be worried about the gasses leaching out of the tyres into the living space. Some of them are carcinogenic (ie. cause cancers).

Also if you are relying on your own water sources, ie. underground and/or rain you should seriously consider a dry composting toilet rather than dirty good clean drinking water with sewerage. That would also reduce the problems of dealing with dirty water. Bath water is OK for garden irrigation. Sewerage water can be dangerous to health if not managed properly.

I'd consider building underground. Provides good temperature control at both ends of the temperature extremes and doesn't cause as much visual polution. You can grow veges on your roof. Basically dig into a hill, build your structure, waterproof and provide drainage, cover with soil. There's a book I've read on underground building: "The $50 & up underground house book". $50 and up underground house book

Good luck.

ps. why can't I get links to work? :cry:

{never fear, Smith is here. links fixed. you had BBCode turned off; EE}

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but the cultivation and perfection of human beings."
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 Post subject:
New postPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:53 am 
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katkinkate wrote:
ps. why can't I get links to work? :cry:


The slash at the end of the URL confused the forum:
Code:
[URL=http://www.undergroundhousing.com/]$50 and up underground house book[/URL]

Should be:

[URL=http://www.undergroundhousing.com]$50 and up underground house book[/URL]


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 5:14 am 
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i think Earthships are adorable but after much reading and research i decided against them, they are just NOT SAFE!!!

i fell in love with this little cabin, check this out carefully, it has it all

http://www.smashy.com/re/rehouse.htm

Image

wood burning hot tub ^_^

oooohh la la no one around for miles, i think we're alone now

Image


this stone stove and slate floor keeps the whole house warm with just a small wood fire, you can use it to bake and cook on too

http://www.smashy.com/re/rein.htm

Image

http://www.tulikivi.com/www/homeeng.nsf/wwwframeset_lämmityslaitteet?OpenPage

Image


if i win the lottery i will custom build one of these

http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/do-it ... stoves.htm

Image
Image

http://www.mha-net.org/html/gallery.htm
Image

this is another neat house, the thing to note here is the forced air ventilation and the masonry fireplace acting as a themal mass for the solar south face


there is a link to the PDF file explaining the house systems

http://www.jshow.com/y2k/listings/55.html

Image


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:45 am 
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I really appeciate everyone's input.

Obviously, this is a big decision for me and my family.


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:35 pm 
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here are some ideas using steel farm buildings as a shell and roof

the steelspan structures can be bermed VERY well, notice the stone berm around the top one

the trussed buildings are kinda stylish i think, if you go for a euro industrial look ;)

Image Image

Image Image
Image Image Image Image Image Image


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:48 pm 
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on the other hand this house looks really expensive, but it sure is neat

http://www.ourcoolhouse.com/

Image Image Image Image Image


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:53 pm 
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Guilt, Guilt! I've visited the Brighton (UK) Earthship and meant to write a report and not got round to it.

When the Great Depression hits and I have no work to do, I'll be able to deal with peak topics in great depth, but have to keep nose to grindstone now :-)

So in the meantime, I'll just say that I have investigated the
toxic fumes/outgassing of tyres subject. It is not true: when they are stuck in the dark, behind adobe/cement walls and plastic partitions they emit:

NOTHING, ZERO ZILCH NADA.

This subject was investigated carefully by the University of Wisconsin. I didn't trace the whole report but here is a summary of some of it:

Quote:
"Use of Scrap Tires in Civil and Environmental Construction" May 10, 1995. Environmental Geo-technics Report No. 95-2. Geo-technical Engineering Program Department of Civil & Environmental Engineering.

Tires are being recommended to absorb off-gassing produced by waste water from communities, industries, and agriculture activities. Here are some highlights from the report: "If tires are reused as a construction material, the unique properties of tires can once again be exploited in a beneficial manner (Ahmed 1993). The benefits of using scrap tires are particularly enhanced if they can be used to replace virgin construction materials made from nonrenewable resources. Additionally, scrap tires are shown to have significant sorption capacity for organic liquids and vapors (Park, Kim, and Edil 1993). Recent research indicated that shredded tires do not show any likelihood of being a hazardous waste material or of having adverse effects on groundwater quality (Edil and Bosscher 1992)." "There may be some concern about lechate quality since scrap tires are considered a waste material. Laboratory and field evidence available does not show any likelihood of scrap tires being a hazardous waste or having potential for significant adverse effects on water quality (Edil and Bossscher 1992)." "In order to obtain an early evaluation of potential environmental problems, duplicate EP toxicity and AFS leaching tests were performed on tire chip samples by the State Laboratory of Hygiene (Edil, Bosscher, and Eldin, 1990). The duplicate results showed excellent correlation for all substances (see Appendix C [in report]). These test results indicate that the shredded automobile tire samples show no likelihood of being a hazardous waste." "Styrene-butadiene rubber is the most important synthetic rubber used by the tire industry. This material is known to absorb large amounts of hazardous organic chemicals from the surrounding environment (Park, Kim, and Edil, 1992). This can actually impart certain beneficial environmental attributes to shredded tires. In summary, shredded tires leach very small amounts of substances compared to other wastes. By comparison to other wastes for which leach test and environmental monitoring data are available, the tire leach data indicate little or no likelihood of shredded tires to have effects on ground water." "This study indicates potential problems under either acidic or basic conditions, i.e., if waste tires are utilized in locations where exposure to pH is expected." "The shredded tires appear to release no base-neutral regulated organics, including PAH compounds that I suggested would be the most likely substances to be extracted from tires....I suspect that several of the substances were released from surface coatings rather than leached from the tire material.....My summary judgment is that the test results indicate that shredded automobile tires leach very small amounts of substances compared to other wastes. The leaching behavior does not indicate that use of tires in earthen embankments or other structures would constitute a threat to groundwater or surface water. The minor amount of leaching of indicators and some metals suggests that tires are best used in buried locations above the water table, rather than in surface applications or in contact with open water bodies. Use of shredded tires need not be restricted in ways different from those placed on whole tires. The test results indicate that waste automobile tires are extremely unlikely to be classified as a hazardous waste." - from a letter by Robert Grefe, State of Wisconsin in "The Report". "Desirable disposal methods [of tires] should at least include three facets: (1) minimum environmental impact (2) maximum reutilization of potential resources (3) economic feasibility" "based upon all of these studies, it can be said that the potential leaching of toxic pollutants from scrap tires is minimal"


AND:

Quote:
However, to assess the risks to human health and environment posed by the use of recycled tires in Earthships, one must look at the pathways of exposure, and the state in which this potential contaminant exists. The letter states that, "A tire under proper conditions will break down into the above products." "The proper conditions" for rubber to degrade would be: high temperature, exposure to light, or the presence of strong oxidizing chemicals. None of these conditions exist when a tire is entombed in an Earthship wall surrounded by packed earth, vapor barrier, stucco, and paint. The argument has been made that tires must off-gas because "old tires smell." The reason "old tires smell" is due to the photo degradation of rubber. Essentially what happens is that photons from light bombard the rubber and knock atoms from the long rubber polymer molecules. This causes the rubber to degrade, and smaller molecules to vaporize. In the absence of light, this does not happen.

Tires are not exposed to light when used in an Earthship. In order for the tires to affect the indoor air quality of an Earthship, the tires must off-gas vapors which must travel from the tires, through the walls, into the living space of the Earthship. The production of such vapors will be proportional to the vapor pressure of the compounds producing the vapors. The NIOSH pocket guide lists the vapor pressure of carbon black as "0 mm (approx.)." This is an extremely low vapor pressure. In other words, this chemical produces almost no vapor. What this means is that the potential for tires to affect indoor air quality will be severely limited by the extremely low vapor pressure of the source chemical. (MY ITALICS)

The letter also states, "We do not need these products leaching into our water systems." In order for a tire to affect water quality, it must come into contact with water, and release chemicals into the water. In a properly designed and constructed Earthship, there will be no flux of water through the wall. Therefore, no water will contact the tire. In the unlikely event that water should contact the tire, the water will not become contaminated because carbon black is insoluble in water (NIOSH Pocket Guide).



On a personal level, while not wanting to dismiss other alternative eco-friendly forms of construction, I was very impressed with the Earthship.

I actually asked the builders about catching fire, and it seems utterly unlikely: they are sealed underground, and have no oxygen - I cannot imagine any circumstance where they would catch fire. Also the tyre walls are solid. More so that 60's built concrete apartments and houses IMHO, as far as being in them goes. I may be wrong, but my subjective, *non-engineer* feeling, was these Earthships will still be there in 500 years.

I want one.

Hope to post more with pics later.....

Good thread!


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:22 am 
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I've had some further thoughts.

Wednesday's buildings do look stylish, but some of them as far as sustainability goes, are more style than substance :) . They would need heating or cooling to function.

The idea of the Earthship and other designs is that they use thickness of material for thermal insulation. Usually built into slopes.

It did strike me that you could build an "Earthship type" much quicker by excavating the area, then tipping concrete in to form the thermal barrier. But this is of course very environmentally-unfriendly. Slaps self round chops for suggesting it...

My qualms about Earthships are more to do with style, light and comfort. The Brighton Earthship is an office/teaching space, not a home.

If you have one that is mostly enclosed on three sides, that doesn't give you many options as far as a traditional family home is concerned, say: living room, dining, room, kitchen, bathroom, master bedroom, 2 kids rooms. If the only light comes from the South you are limiting the design.

The Brighton Earthship has a "Turret" which completely enclosed. It's going to be an office, but I would hate to work there: its like a dungeon with only a skylight. I'd have wanted it to be made out of say a triple-glazed glass, so the people could look out over the lovely landscape.

Of course using high-tech materials increases the cost, including the fossil fuel cost, of the building, but I think you have to have something "liveable". I love the organic, curved, "Gaudi-esque" shapes on some of the ones built in the US - Earthship Image Gallery. But only if they are designed to let enough natural light in.

We evolved to rise with the sunshine, and go to sleep when it gets dark. We certainly shouldn't live in caves, or cave-like structures. Electric lighting is a profound distortion of our natural rhythm. Resulting in our current, sleep-deprived society. Perhaps post-oil we'll move back to a more agrarian lifestyle of days and seasons....muses idly.

Finally, the people building the Earthship told me that the UK has enough dumped tyres to build 2000 of them. That sounds fine, but it is a drop in the ocean of housing need here. Retrofitting our existing, energy leaking housing stock (as far as we can) is going to be a more important objective.


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 Post subject:
New postPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:56 am 
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Thanks guys. :)

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"The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops,
but the cultivation and perfection of human beings."
Masanobu Fukuoka


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 Post subject: EarthShips II
New postPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2005 8:02 am 
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JJ,

When I find all my phone #s back from the NM itinerary, I'll call some of the people who were finding organics in their air samples and quiz them about sources other than the tires for these slip-streams. It might be that other factors exist or that the testing was done wrong.

Thanks for posting your findings.

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