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View unanswered posts | View active topics
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JohnDenver
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Post subject: M. King Hubbert on "The Free Lunch" Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 7:39 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 2171
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Hubbert didn't like the idea that there is "no free lunch". He felt it was a pernicious fallacy which is at the root of many of our problems:
Quote: In the distribution to the public of the products of industry, the failure of the present system is the direct result of the faulty premise upon which it is based. This is: that somehow a man is able by his personal services to render to society the equivalent of what he receives, from which it follows that the distribution to each shall be in accordance with the services rendered and that those who do not work must not eat. This is what our propagandists call 'the impossibility of getting something for nothing.' Aside from the fact that only by means of the sophistries of lawyers and economists can it be explained how, on this basis, those who do nothing at all frequently receive the largest shares of the national income, the simple fact is that it is impossible for any man to contribute to the social system the physical equivalent of what it costs the system to maintain him form birth till death--and the higher the physical standard of living the greater is this discrepancy. Here he just comes out and says it: It's ALL a free lunch. Quote: Since also the energy-cost of maintaining a human being exceeds by a large amount his ability to repay, we can abandon the fiction that what one is to receive is in payment for what one has done, and recognize that what we are really doing is utilizing the bounty that nature has provided us. Under these circumstances we recognize that we all are getting something for nothing, and the simplest way of effecting distribution is on a basis of equality, especially so when it is considered that production can be set equal to the limit of our capacity to consume, commensurate with adequate conservation of our physical resources.
http://www.hubbertpeak.com/hubbert/hubecon.htm
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JohnDenver
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:11 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 2171
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This is deep stuff, folks. Please read Hubbert's words carefully, and ruminate on it for a while. I had to think about it for a long time (months!  ) before it became clear.
Quote: Under these circumstances we recognize that we all are getting something for nothing, and the simplest way of effecting distribution is on a basis of equality, especially so when it is considered that production can be set equal to the limit of our capacity to consume, commensurate with adequate conservation of our physical resources.
Hubbert was a genius.
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UIUCstudent01
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Post subject: I love him.. Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 8:53 pm |
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Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 1:00 am Posts: 887
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Colorado-Valley
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Post subject: Posted: Tue Apr 19, 2005 9:57 pm |
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Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 746
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Isn't the whole capitalist theory based on creating scarcity?
Apparently in the energy business, it's called "bottlenecks."
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linlithgowoil
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Post subject: Posted: Wed Apr 20, 2005 2:02 am |
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Joined: Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 884 Location: Scotland
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i thought the idea of capitalism was that a few people get very rich by inventing stuff/owning means of production. they pay the workers just enough to stop them being unhappy and being non-productive, and are protected from the odd rebellious worker by the police and the courts, who are also made up of the very same workers. divide and conquer?
essentially, though, its about power - not really money. its just like the feudal system that used to exist in europe. a guy at the top, with a few generals below, a few sargeants below that and so on until you get to the majority who are landless peasants.
even those who own their own homes, but have a mortgage over them, are actually landless in my opinion. you do not truly own your own home/land until you own it without debt, and i believe that very few people will ever get to this point in future. they'll either die in debt or be re-possessed, and we'll be back to just a few people (or corporations) owning land, and renting it to the general masses.
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Don_Quichote
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Post subject: Hubbert peak theory and the UK Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 4:57 am |
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 1:00 am Posts: 20
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Carlhole
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Post subject: Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 6:05 am |
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TheTurtle
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Post subject: Posted: Sun May 29, 2005 6:13 am |
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Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 2006 Location: Along the banks of the muddy Mississippi
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tdrive
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Post subject: Hubbert’s model: uses, meanings, and limits Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 6:43 pm |
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Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 347
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The Oil & Gas Journal will have a two-part editorial analysis on Dr. M. K. Hubbert's work on peak oil production. The first part will be in the upcoming 06-Jun-05 release (Issue 21), the second in the subsequent 22-nd Issue.
Here is an advance peak from the Issue 21 article (Introduction):
Quote: It is well known that M. K. Hubbert successfully predicted the timing of peak US oil production. Since then, Hubbert’s model has been used extensively to predict peak oil production elsewhere, and the derived bell-shaped curve to describe production has appeared in many publications. However, forecasts of world and regional peak oil and natural gas production using this methodology have usually failed, leading to the implicit belief that such predictions will always fail and that we need not worry about finite resources.
The questions that must be asked are why the model succeeded for the US and what this can teach us about petroleum production modeling. A careful examination of Hubbert’s approach indicates that the most important reasons for his success in the US were stable markets, the high growth rate of demand, ready availability of low-cost imports, and a reasonable estimate of easily extractable reserves. This analysis also shows that his model cannot predict ultimate oil reserves and that it should be considered an econometric model.
Building on Hubbert’s vital insight, that cheap fossil fuel reserves are knowable and finite, one can state that for peak world oil production, political constraints should be much more important than resource constraints.
Cheers,
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Antimatter
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:09 pm |
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Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:00 am Posts: 613 Location: Australia
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OGJ did a fair few articles on peak oil in 2004 and 2003. There was some chatter about the issue on the OGJ forums here: link
Editor Bob Williams appears to think PO is not imminent.
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ubercrap
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:48 pm |
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Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 367
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Antimatter wrote: OGJ did a fair few articles on peak oil in 2004 and 2003. There was some chatter about the issue on the OGJ forums here: linkEditor Bob Williams appears to think PO is not imminent.
I haven't read all of his comments on the OGJ forums yet, but already, he is criticizing Campbell for underestimating reserves like the oil sands in Alberta. However, by the very people running the oil sands production, who have every reason to be optimistic, claim 5 mbpd output after 2020 http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... MUPL60.DTL. If "Hubbertian" models of oil production dropoff rates post peak are correct with regards to conventional oil (or even worse due to M.R.E.), we will see millions of barrels-per-day loss in production every year. 5 mpbd starts to sound like a drop in the bucket. The description that peak oil may be the exact midpoint of oil-type hydrocarbon extraction may be not quite true. Even if the oil sands and other similar things have vast amounts of recoverable oil compared to conventional reserves, what is the rate at which they can realistically be recovered? Peak oil, in its real world effect, is the peak rate of oil production. Only if the rate of non-conventional oil production can be ramped up to not only meet new demand, but make up for the yearly decline in conventional oil also, would it truly mitigate the peak oil problem. This doesn't seem likely even by the optimistic outlook from the very people who would benefit the most. Any thoughts on this?
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holmes
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 8:56 pm |
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Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 2506
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ubercrap wrote: Antimatter wrote: OGJ did a fair few articles on peak oil in 2004 and 2003. There was some chatter about the issue on the OGJ forums here: linkEditor Bob Williams appears to think PO is not imminent. I haven't read all of his comments on the OGJ forums yet, but already, he is criticizing Campbell for underestimating reserves like the oil sands in Alberta. However, by the very people running the oil sands production, who have every reason to be optimistic, claim 5 mbpd output after 2020 http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... MUPL60.DTL. If "Hubbertian" models of oil production dropoff rates post peak are correct with regards to conventional oil (or even worse due to M.R.E.), we will see millions of barrels-per-day loss in production every year. 5 mpbd starts to sound like a drop in the bucket. The descripotion that peak oil may be the exact midpoint of oil-type hydrocarbon extraction may be not quite true. Even if the oil sands and other similar things have vast amounts of recoverable oil compared to conventional reserves, what is the rate at which they can realistically be recovered? Peak oil, in its real world effect, is the peak rate of oil production. Only if the rate of non-conventional oil production can be ramped up to not only meet new demand, but make up for the yearly decline in conventional oil also, would it truly mitigate the peak oil problem. This doesn't seem likely even by the optimistic outlook from the very people who would benefit the most. Any thoughts on this?
yeah its all running out. I really dont get into these discussions. To me by 2050 if your alive you better have something setup that doesnt need oil.
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ubercrap
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Post subject: Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:32 pm |
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Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 367
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Heck, I was just reading about some of this in another post, and I had momentarily forgotten the huge amounts of natural gas needed for processing of the tar sands. Since it looks like natural gas is facing the same problems as oil, at least in North America, this is yet another factor... Strategically, it seems like a wiser allocation if we start importing natural gas from other continents on a huge scale, that it would be better used directly for whatever seems to be the most urgent need at the time (powering vehicles, heating homes?) than the energy intensive processing of the tar sands. Then there is the factor of water needed for processing...
As for the difficulty of the heavy oil extraction, I'll have to look into it...
I'm not sure I can even read the rest OGJ editor's posts referred to above- even mentioning the tar sands as a possible mitigator of peak oil seems to be wishful thinking, maybe even bordering on delusional from where I'm sitting. I wonder what the articles will be like?
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cammo2004
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Post subject: Posted: Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:46 am |
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Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 104
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ubercrap wrote: Antimatter wrote: OGJ did a fair few articles on peak oil in 2004 and 2003. There was some chatter about the issue on the OGJ forums here: linkEditor Bob Williams appears to think PO is not imminent. I haven't read all of his comments on the OGJ forums yet, but already, he is criticizing Campbell for underestimating reserves like the oil sands in Alberta. However, by the very people running the oil sands production, who have every reason to be optimistic, claim 5 mbpd output after 2020 http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... MUPL60.DTL. If "Hubbertian" models of oil production dropoff rates post peak are correct with regards to conventional oil (or even worse due to M.R.E.), we will see millions of barrels-per-day loss in production every year. 5 mpbd starts to sound like a drop in the bucket. The description that peak oil may be the exact midpoint of oil-type hydrocarbon extraction may be not quite true. Even if the oil sands and other similar things have vast amounts of recoverable oil compared to conventional reserves, what is the rate at which they can realistically be recovered? Peak oil, in its real world effect, is the peak rate of oil production. Only if the rate of non-conventional oil production can be ramped up to not only meet new demand, but make up for the yearly decline in conventional oil also, would it truly mitigate the peak oil problem. This doesn't seem likely even by the optimistic outlook from the very people who would benefit the most. Any thoughts on this?
I think this is a very important point.
When I explain the PO phenomenon (lol, my mates are sick of it already  , though one of them did go and see the End of Suburbia documentary (somebody was showing it at some place in the local area), I emphasise the point that the rate of supply is a significant factor.
The good news though is that one of my other friends seemed to be taking it all in when I explained it to her. Now the part of the equation she doesn't know is that I happen to like her. Alot.
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FatherOfTwo
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Post subject: Posted: Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:14 am |
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 968 Location: Heart of Canada's Oil Country
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ubercrap wrote: Heck, I was just reading about some of this in another post, and I had momentarily forgotten the huge amounts of natural gas needed for processing of the tar sands.
You are right on the extraction rate, and most likely will be proved wrong on the natural gas issue.
http://peakoil.com/fortopic6745.html
_________________ Do not underestimate the difficulties of surviving the transition of peak oil, nor the dangers of global warming. We must embrace nuclear energy and renewables.
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