Hi Phebagirl,

Welcome to the group! It's great to have a working farmer post here.

I grew up in a rural farming community. My mother grew up on a dairy farm and most of her 11 siblings farmed or did farm during their lifetimes.

None used organic methods once chemicals were readily available and cheap. One downside to using chemicals that is not mentioned much is their effect on the farmers that use them. My mother and seven of her siblings have had cancer. She and four of her siblings died as a result. Three of my uncles, all farmers, died of a very rare, extremely lethal form of lung cancer.

That said, I do believe that the increased yields that have resulted from chemical usage is what has contributed to there being 6.5 billion humans on the planet. I share your concern that conversion to organic will mean a significant net decrease in the amount of food produced. The rest is simple math.

I just started reading this thread, but felt I should comment. I know quite a few families in western Wisconsin and surrounding areas who have small farms, anywhere from less than 5 acres to over 500 acres, and make their living on the farm. Many of the smallest places are CSAs (Community Supported Agriculture), and the idea is that a person/family subscribes to a portion of the annual output of the farm or market garden. Every week, in season, you then get a box of produce that is your "share" of what they produced that week. I know of couples that provide summer produce to 20 to 50 families, and may also employe one or more interns or students to help them in the summer. They may also provide honey, maple sirup, grain for flour, etc., in addition to garden produce.

I know of quit a few small dairy operations that may provide full income to the family, and also some where one or more people also work off the farm.

One of the things that I notice with the small farms or market gardens is that they are "organic" or close to it. They are managed with the intention of being as sustainable as possible, and that often means that in the early years of converting to "organic" they may need to add mineral soil supplements and lots of green manure crops, etc., to build up the soil health. After thngs are off to a good start, though, the manure, compost, and green cover crops that are produced on the farm do most of the job of maintianing and improving the soil, without the need for any chemical fertilizers, or chemical pest control.

Jim

Wisjim,

Thanks for jogging my memory. We have a few of these coops in my part of the state as well, but I'm curious as to the how they work economically. When I was working, one of my colleagues received his veggies from a coop in the manner you describe. However, the coop went bust. Don't know if it was poor management or what happened.

Also, every farmer's market around here is well-represented by Hmong farmers. They seem to persist year after year.

Just curious as to what type of business model these enterprises use and how scalable it is.

Wow! What a fantastic insight into the realities that face us.

Pheba - have you come across Permaculture at all? There is also a new DVD called "Peak Oil, Imposed by Nature" that may be worth trying:
http://www.postcarbon.org/node/404

Forget about converting the masses. Concentrate on self-sufficiency for your family. The masses are in pathological denial--or what Catton (in OVERSHOOT) called "redundancy anxiety". Numerous crises are likely to develop this winter=Oil Shock, bird flu..and the financial/economic situation is very perilous. You've come to the right site. There are many intelligent professionals in all fields--even authors, plus some paranoid spooks.

Donate your copies of EOS to the library-I guarantee you they will be loaned out constantly. There is a swelling undercurrent of awareness.

my 2cents.

Here is a site about CSAs in the Minneapolis area:http://www.landstewardshipproject.org/csa.html
Here's a link to one of the CSAs that I personally know. http://members.localnet.com/~bhftrust/
They have been doing this for 10 years, and as far as I know, neither of the folks work off the farm, except that he does have a portable sawmill and saws lumber for people in the area, and he used to do some tree planting in the spring before their gardening got busy.

I see more and more businesses like this, especially around the larger urban areas. Around me, many of them make biweekly drives of 50 to 75 miles to Minneapolis-St Paul area to deliver produce.

I feel that the best thing, if you can do it, is to grow as much of your own food as possible. If you can't, then make a connection to the people providing most of your food, and find out where it comes from and how it is produced. Many CSAs encourage participation by their members with volunteer work days, potlucks, picnics, and open houses.

I need to go pick cucumbers, peppers, tomatoes, apricots, carrots, and help harvest our year's supply of garlic and onions. Feels good to know that the root cellar will be well stocked, and the freezer (run off the PVs and wind generator) will be full of berries and juices.

Jim

Just wondering how increasing gasoline prices are going to affect their profits with all that driving.

Canning time for me, too. Beans, peppers and tomatoes on the agenda this week.

Here are some more links to consider -

http://organicvalley.coop/ - they have been expanding the past few years

http://www.mosaorganic.org/asoclink.html - see how other small farmers are making it work.

http://www.mosesorganic.org/

Question - Which job is worse - shovelling shit, or working in the mow (small bale)? I didn't (don't) like shit, but mowing in haying weather, in a stuffy barn, dragging 70 lb bales. That will make you sleep damned good at night.

Most farmers in SW wisc have at least one of the couple to work off farm for health benefits - Is this similar for you and your area? I tend to think the farmers will continue to use the petroleum that they (you) need. Relative to total consumption, you are nearly a nonfactor. But what you produce is beyond vital ---->> farming will continue.


Seriously, get those closest to you (friends, family, close neighbors) to understand the challenges that we face, it will snowball from there (hopefully in the correct direction). And the word is starting to get out, you see more and more info about this is entering the public domain, not just behind closed doors and "conspirousy" sites anymore. And there IS action being undertaken at numerous levels in the corporate and governmental world. (easy on the cynicism - some in those positions understand what is at stake) There are the questions of "how much of a problem do we have?", "how can this be resolved?", "Can this be resolved?" and perhaps the most difficult question of "how do we break the news?" What are our reactions going to be when the future that we have hoped and dreamed for become more difficult / nearly impossible to achieve?

We were down at LaFarge last Saturday (July 30th) for Organic Valley's Country Fair. Had a good time and got to tour their new headquarters building--twice the floor space that they had previously used, and half the utility bills. It was built with saving resources and energy in mind, and although it isn't quite what I might have done, it was encouraging to see what their priorities were.

As it happened, my youngest son was near Syracuse NY that weekend visiting a friend at her family's farm, and they sell their organic milk through Organic Valley--and they have 4.8kw of grid tied PVs and are considering a wind generator.

Not sure how applicable this is to this thread but I thought it interesting.

Jim

Good day to all:
First, thanks so much for all of the responses to my post.
Second, and I need to do this before my husband has a total hissy fit.;
I need to amend some information that I posted. I was wrong again. If being wrong makes a person humble, I should be filled with humility.

Some clover does die off, but some can live forever if it is properly managed.
Red clover is prone to disease and only lives a few years. Red clover needs to be reseeded.

White clover can go on forever if you manage it well. White clover needs fertilizer (potash and phosphate), and can not be cropped to hard.
Quite by accident we discovered something interesting about white clover.

My husband and I love wildlife. I especially love the Eastern Box Turtle. The box turtle is becoming rare in Missouri because breeding age adults are constantly being hit by cars in the spring of the year. They cross the road seeking a mate and are wiped out.

Unfortunately, when hay is mown, the mower will chop up any box turtle that is unfortunate enough to be in the field.
A few years ago my husband ran over a rare flat backed turtle. he was devastated. He immediately came home and raised the blades on the mower a scant inch.

Something wonderful happened. When he raised the mower just that small amount, the blades skimmed right over the fattest turtle with no harm done.

The total quantity of hay baled was reduced, but the clover was not as harshly cut back. The clover, especially the white clover, bounced back, and was able to make a second full crop. The white clover also seeded better than it had in previous years. Nature always has something to teach us.

I am purchasing the film Peak Oil, Imposed by Nature today. I am very excited about it.

I am going to donate a copy of my EOS to the library, but only if they can add it. Our library system is kind of weird. Our small town library is connected to the larger system in the big city. The down side of this connection is that our small library can only add items to the system that are already in the computer! My small town library will be unable to add EOS to their system.

I will have to go to the large library. We shall see what happens when the films get here.

I have even advertised to show the film EOS for free to any group who wants to see it. I was on our public radio station just this week stating that I would show the film. 1 taker so far.

Gasoline just jumped 20 cents in 24 hours in our big city. We shall see how interest peaks.

My husband is a traditional farmer. There is a social cohesion among farmers. Going an organic route is difficult. Change is difficult. My farmer has made gigantic changes since 1991.

The changes have not come easy. Everything is a work in progress.
Like the experience with the box turtles and the white clover. We are getting there, but the process is a slow learning one.

What bothers me is this uneasy feeling that we do not have a lot of time.

Another event that has taught us is the 22 acres of warm season grass. The native Missouri Gamma grass is amazing. I have described the grass in a separate post.

Prior to meeting me my husband would spray a petroleum based herbicide on the grass. he did this because as a traditional farmer it was what he was used to doing.
He receives a Missouri native grass newsletter. The newsletter supports controlled burn to control weeds in plots of native grass. The controlled burn is a natural method to control weeds.

We have been doing controlled burn since 1995. The burn actually works ten times better!!! than peteroleum based herbices. And, it's almost totally free!!.

Unfortunately the controlled burn that we were doing was displacing wildlife that was nesting in the plot.

The following year we changed the time of year we burned. We switched to early March, prior to most nesting of birds.

The year after that we learned about patchwork burn. We only burned a portion of the 22 acres each year. We did a pattern like a checkerboard as much as possible. (fire is hard to control)

The pathwork burn allowed animals to escape to another unburned part of the warm season grass.

As you can see the learning process is a slow one. But wow, when you succeed, there is no feeling quite like it.

I am still planning on attending the course on biointensive as soon as I can talk my traditional husband into it. Will keep you posted.

Thanks again for all of the support, correction and information. I deeply appreciate it.

Pheba from the farm.

Can I just say this:

I LOVE READING YOUR POSTS!!

They are a wealth of information, written in a positive tone and inspiring in so many ways. Thank you for your participation here. Have a great day!

My own experience is that of a small farmer. You learn amazing things.


For instance, we're just getting our last load of hay in this afternoon. We cut a total of about 12 acres of hay and store it loose in the barn.

Our own 3 acre hayfield + 5 acre pasture is land that we cleared, stoned, and seeded ourselves. The timothy is fabulous. This year we're putting on 120 tons of short fiber paper waste on all 15 acres of our open fields as an "organic" soil amendment.

In the middle of putting up hay today, I said to my partner: "All this work, just to feed ourselves!"

The energy that goes into a good portion of our diet is energy we can see expended, right before our eyes. We have a milk cow and calf, two horses, some chickens and turkeys. Orchard and big gardens.

For most people, food just appears in the supermarket.

Reading your posts, phebagirl, people can begin to understand what an AWESOME PROJECT local agriculture is going to be. Especially when you go low-petroleum.

How many people out there have picked potato beetles and tomato hornworms? Let's see your hands...

Phebagirl

Please continue to post up any additional incidental learning experiences that you may recall. I am just getting ready to purchase some additional land in Poland (fruits/veggies/chickens/goats) and while I feel that I may already be too late, I am going to give it a try because that is what I would want to do anyway (regardless of PO). I have been working in the US in the technology field for over 20 years and while it was financially rewarding, I knew something was lacking.

From what I have seen here, production is not a problem. The most important thing I need to learn is how to preserve for the winter. Obviously, people have been doing it for a long time, so it must be possible. I am already recruiting oldtimers to help me learn.

It dawns on me that the eating bugs thread has some merit after all.

I had several last minute projects in the last 2 weeks right at the same time I had a PC virus – luckily my money is made on a Mac, but I still had to do battle with the hackers. At any rate with working in the office I wasn’t able to get out and do hornworm and squashbug duty as I should.

Anyone out there ever can tomato and hornworm stew?

I was up last night till about midnight shucking sweet corn – Susan has 60 pints so far today, probably about 10 more to go. We’ll have the next rows coming in about 2 weeks.

What about corn and earworm soup?


Anyway, good for you on having hay to stack KJ, we baled 15 little bales of alfalfa from 7 acres last night. Later someone called about our fescue hay, I told them that I guess I’ll keep our first cutting as that may be all we’ll get this year from the looks of the weather. I told him to call back at the end of the month though - by then the hay may be worth more than my steers!

Good day from Pheba on the farm:
I am going to have to go to tech support to learn how to incorporate quotes into my responses. I am technically challenged!
The quotation about putting food by for the winter reminded me of "leather britches".
Most folks are familiar with canning food. Most people do not realize that home canning is a relatively new procedure. (late 1800's-early1900's)
My family originally came from a county in southern Missouri. They migrated from North Carolina through Tennessee.
They carried with them many old ways. As a child I would sit and listen to them talk.
I also adopted their methods of cooking food.
One food that both my husband and I love are green beans cooked with a piece of salt pork or ham.
I also love to add potatoes. he does not like the cabbage added. My grandmother always added cabbage.
What always puzzled me about the green bean dish was the fact that it was usually cooked all day long. The poor green beans could not have any nutrition left after such a long cooking.
They taste delicious, and the more they are reheated the better they taste.
I have since learned that there was good reason for the long cooking.
The home canning process is a new one. Home canning goes back about 100 years. Botulism is a problem with green beans because of their low acidity. The housewife knew this and cooked the beans for long periods of time just to be safe.
I used to wonder how people saved a green bean crop prior to the invention of canning.
Fresh green beans were snapped and strung on thread. They were hung in hot dry attics and turned into what were known as "leather britches".
It is easy to envision the colorful name linked with the physical consistancy of the final product.
Cooking for hours was necessary to restore moisture to the dried nuggets and make them into nice green beans again.
I smile every time I hear that name, "Leather britches".
Our ancestors were not stupid. They had many survival skills that we have forgotten. Freezing and canning require a lot of energy. Making leather britches requires only sunshine and the right weather and time of year.
I also have a motto to post below my postings, but again, I need to contact tech support to learn how. So, I will post what I have chosen as my motto until I figure out how to do a tech thingy.

Have a wonderful day
Pheba From the farm

"We have forgotten what were born knowing"