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EnviroEngr
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Post subject: Re: Michael Lynch - Disputing Peak Oil Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:46 am |
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Joined: Mon May 24, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 1887 Location: Richland Center, Wisconsin
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_________________ ----------------------------------------- | Whose reality is this anyway!? | ----------------------------------------- (---------< Temet Nosce >---------) __________________________
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spike
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Post subject: Re: Michael Lynch - Disputing Peak Oil Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 4:58 am |
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 241
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mididoctors wrote: spike wrote: I understand your concerns, but think they are misplaced. Better exploitation of the resource would lead to a faster crash if the resource was very limited (like fish populations). In the case of oil, I would argue that we're not hitting the limits, so this is not a problem. In theoretical terms, if the resource was being stressed, costs would be rising. We don't see that. In practical terms, you might get higher depletion in existing fields, meaning more drilling is required, but since the drilling is more effective, there is an offset. Mike Lynch mididoctors wrote: isn't high recovery a disaster in waiting as the perception of abundance at the consumer level is seen by increasing production rather than depletion of oil in place?
hence investment cycles are timed on liner projections which must crash... oil must be discovered first... you agree... yes? in-essence a very asymmetric oil production curve will form in relation to oil in place
in other words you may be correct in analysis yet your message may be poorly understood or be misinterpreted?
Boris london thank you for your reply.. is it true about stressed resources lead to rising cost? do you mean input to output ratios.. your fishing analogy seems unlikely to actually create a greater base cost to the industry? my point thou is even if your correct the time-scale of substitution investment may require us to start long before a conventional market based stress being perceived? ie we should be investing NOW for a future oil scarce scenario even if peak is way off as waiting for the resource to be stressed is too late. To my mind the FACT that depletion is a issue of controversy is a marker moves should be made even if estimates of oil in place are woefully pessimistic? Boris london
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spike
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Post subject: Re: Michael Lynch - Disputing Peak Oil Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:03 am |
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 241
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You'll get my bill.
Inventories have been rising, and are now close to 1999 levels (recent record). Katrina will slow that slightly.
Every year, the oil industry adds capacity close to that of Ghawar, which is ignored by the alarmists. There are a number of fields coming online this fall/winter, including off Brazil and Angola, in the Caspian, and the Gulf of Mexico (see Katrina stories, though).
Also, demand is getting weaker.
If my price prediction is wrong, my supply stance won't change much. If my supply expectations prove incorrect, I will reassess. But you will note that supply has surged in the past two years, about 6 mb/d, a huge increase. So when Campbell argues that reflects resource scarcity, he's talking through his hat.
Mike Lynch
NEOPO wrote: Mike, Awesome........ thanks for the freebie man!! Ok thats something we can build on If you will entertain me further please: What contributing factors will cause oil prices to come down 30-50% in the next 4 months ? I observe many experts speaking of "pure speculation" and "bull market" to describe the markets movements. Assuming this stance is correct - there simply must be some sort of fantastic news coming - some great find coming online - to offset news like what we are seeing from indonesia, the north sea, political alignments in south central america etc.,etc., Is another ghawar coming online or something of that magnitude? Lastly - If you are incorrect and Nymex SLC oil is as high or higher then lets say $60 by Jan 01 06 - how will that impact your current stance? Always a pleasure Mike 
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Aaron
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Post subject: Re: Michael Lynch - Disputing Peak Oil Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:10 am |
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| 800 lb Gorilla |
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Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 6765 Location: Houston
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Quote: Matt talks about 'super suckers' or something, but no one else does. He has been saying for 5 years that all the giant fields are about to suffer production collapse, but he has no evidence to support it.
I think Matt would agree... it's his battle cry.
transparency
You would agree that more aggressive production can lead to more rapid depletion after peak yes? (at least on a per field basis.)
_________________ The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.
Hazel Henderson
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mididoctors
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Post subject: Re: Michael Lynch - Disputing Peak Oil Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:50 am |
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Joined: Mon Aug 30, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 560 Location: London
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spike wrote: You'll get my bill. Inventories have been rising, and are now close to 1999 levels (recent record). Katrina will slow that slightly.
it is odd?
is this a sign of speculative behaviour?
is the rate of consumption keeping the value of inventories in number of days supply the same despite inventory growth?
Boris
london
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spike
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Post subject: Re: Michael Lynch - Disputing Peak Oil Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:46 pm |
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 241
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The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.
More efficient wells drain faster, but the new ones add more production. There's an offset, which Matt and others ignore.
We haven't seen any production collapse of the type that Matt implies is occurring, and there's plenty of field data available. Nor do any SPE papers say that this is a problem, nothing that I've seen.
Mike Lynch
Aaron wrote: Quote: Matt talks about 'super suckers' or something, but no one else does. He has been saying for 5 years that all the giant fields are about to suffer production collapse, but he has no evidence to support it. I think Matt would agree... it's his battle cry. transparency You would agree that more aggressive production can lead to more rapid depletion after peak yes? (at least on a per field basis.)
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spike
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Post subject: Re: Michael Lynch - Disputing Peak Oil Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 12:49 pm |
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 241
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Yes, it's odd and does support the hypothesis that speculation is the main driver of higher prices at present (Katrina excepted). Consumption has risen somewhat, but inventories in days of consumption are well above their lows, while prices are at all-time highs.
Mike Lynch
mididoctors wrote: spike wrote: You'll get my bill. Inventories have been rising, and are now close to 1999 levels (recent record). Katrina will slow that slightly. it is odd? is this a sign of speculative behaviour? is the rate of consumption keeping the value of inventories in number of days supply the same despite inventory growth? Boris london
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nero
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Post subject: Re: Michael Lynch - Disputing Peak Oil Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:20 pm |
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Joined: Sat May 22, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 1448 Location: Ottawa, Ontario
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spike wrote: Yes, it's odd and does support the hypothesis that speculation is the main driver of higher prices at present (Katrina excepted). Consumption has risen somewhat, but inventories in days of consumption are well above their lows, while prices are at all-time highs. Mike Lynch
A couple of reasons for the high inventories have been suggested.
1. It is a response to the contango in the futures market.
2 It is a response to the lack of spare production capacity. In essence it is an addendum to the SPR and is due to the increased risk of a disruption.
It seems to me that both of these actions are rational behaviours and while speculative are not part of any irrational "bubble" that is about to collapse. What credence do you give to such explanations for the inventory build?
_________________ Biofuels: The "What else we got to burn?" answer to peak oil.
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Aaron
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Post subject: Re: Michael Lynch - Disputing Peak Oil Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:24 pm |
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| 800 lb Gorilla |
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Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 6765 Location: Houston
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Quote: We haven't seen any production collapse of the type that Matt implies is occurring, and there's plenty of field data available. Nor do any SPE papers say that this is a problem, nothing that I've seen.
Agreed.
But... would you would agree that more aggressive production can lead to more rapid depletion after peak yes? (at least on a per field basis.)
_________________ The problem is, of course, that not only is economics bankrupt, but it has always been nothing more than politics in disguise... economics is a form of brain damage.
Hazel Henderson
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Ming
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Post subject: Re: Michael Lynch - Disputing Peak Oil Posted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 2:26 pm |
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 271
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Quote: If my price prediction is wrong, my supply stance won't change much. If my supply expectations prove incorrect, I will reassess. But you will note that supply has surged in the past two years, about 6 mb/d, a huge increase. So when Campbell argues that reflects resource scarcity, he's talking through his hat.
Those are strong words...
Supply did raise, but how do you reach the number of 6 mb/d in the last 2 years?
The numbers I find (in IEA and EIA) point to less than 5 mb/d...
However, that is not the most important point.
2 years ago, there was a significant extra production margin on call to cover production problems. (For example: the loss of 3mb/d during the Venezuela strike was not a drama, back then…)
Now that margin has eroded to some 1mb/d (with the recent increases in production from SA).
So, considering a 5mb/d increase in production and subtracting the margin lost during those 2 years (a decline from some 4mb/d of margin to some 1 mb/d now) we reach an increase in the world production capability of only 2 md/d in the last 2 years.
(Even if we want to be really kind, and consider a reduction of margin from 3.5 to 1.5 mb/d, we only get an increase in the world production capability of 3 md/d in the last 2 years...)
And that was before the recent (strong and mostly unexpected) production declines in the North Sea, Canada and so on…
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cornholio
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Post subject: Re: Michael Lynch - Disputing Peak Oil Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:16 pm |
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 145 Location: MO, USA
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I think this is the correct thread for this... Another oil research firm predicting undulating but adequate supply with inproved production by 2010... Has this report been discussed and dismissed previously? It seems to be separate from the group Mr. Lynch is associated with...
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/features/fex52722.htm
An audio file of an interview with a CERA spokesman... NPR interview.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4713059
Quote: "Cambridge Energy Research Associates, based near Boston, is sceptical, and released highlights of a report that concludes the world's capacity to produce oil will likely easily exceed the world's voracious demand for the product that fuels cars, ships and planes.
Increasing oil production capacity "will comfortably meet volatile and expanding demand in the next five years and beyond," Peter Jackson and Robert Esser, the authors of the report, write in their introduction. Total capacity will surge by almost 20 % to 101.5 mm bpd by 2010, the widely respected and closely followed consultancy predicted, basing its assessment on field-by-field research. In 2010, capacity could be seven mm barrels or so higher than demand -- a huge surplus....
The report also took aim at peak-oil theorists, who espouse the view that the world's oil production will hit a high, possibly as early as this year, and then decline rapidly. While no one argues that oil is anything but a finite resource, Cambridge Energy Research doesn't see a peak at all. Instead, it projected an "undulating plateau," extending for several decades."
_________________ Verbal: The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist...
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pstarr
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Post subject: Re: Michael Lynch - Disputing Peak Oil Posted: Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:47 pm |
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Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 10081 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
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cornholio wrote: I think this is the correct thread for this... Another oil research firm predicting undulating but adequate supply with inproved production by 2010... Has this report been discussed and dismissed previously? It seems to be separate from the group Mr. Lynch is associated with... http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/features/fex52722.htmAn audio file of an interview with a CERA spokesman... NPR interview. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=4713059Quote: "Cambridge Energy Research Associates, based near Boston, is sceptical, and released highlights of a report that concludes the world's capacity to produce oil will likely easily exceed the world's voracious demand for the product that fuels cars, ships and planes. Increasing oil production capacity "will comfortably meet volatile and expanding demand in the next five years and beyond," Peter Jackson and Robert Esser, the authors of the report, write in their introduction. Total capacity will surge by almost 20 % to 101.5 mm bpd by 2010, the widely respected and closely followed consultancy predicted, basing its assessment on field-by-field research. In 2010, capacity could be seven mm barrels or so higher than demand -- a huge surplus.... The report also took aim at peak-oil theorists, who espouse the view that the world's oil production will hit a high, possibly as early as this year, and then decline rapidly. While no one argues that oil is anything but a finite resource, Cambridge Energy Research doesn't see a peak at all. Instead, it projected an "undulating plateau," extending for several decades."
actually this is not the thread for this. do a search on CERA in these forums and you will find that their data is no more transparent than the Saudi's.
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Ming
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Post subject: Re: Michael Lynch - Disputing Peak Oil Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:59 am |
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Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 271
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From my personal point of view, CERA's report is totally wrong (and is totally irrelevant).
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NEOPO
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Post subject: Re: Michael Lynch - Disputing Peak Oil Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:28 pm |
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Joined: Sun May 15, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 4050 Location: THE MATRIX
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Mike/spike,
I was wondering if the negative economic effects of hurricane Katrina had changed/altered your SLC$ outlook for 01/01/06?
So,
A. we will have more oil/capacity buffer = lower price
or
B. we will have less oil/capacity buffer = higher price
as a result of the economic effects of hurricane katrina.
I hope my logic isnt flawed
IMHO and Assuming PO is fact - any economic slowdown is a good thing wether PO is 30 years or 3 months in our future.
Thank you again for your time and participation on this forum.
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spike
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Post subject: Re: Michael Lynch - Disputing Peak Oil Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 8:18 am |
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 241
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If drilling stops, yes. But in most fields there are opportunities for continuing investment which at least in part offsets rapid decline rates.
Aaron wrote: Quote: We haven't seen any production collapse of the type that Matt implies is occurring, and there's plenty of field data available. Nor do any SPE papers say that this is a problem, nothing that I've seen.
Agreed. But... would you would agree that more aggressive production can lead to more rapid depletion after peak yes? (at least on a per field basis.)
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