What the HELL is your problem ashurbanipal?

Just give the fuck up and die, see if I give a rat's ass.

God damn it to hell.

If you insist on staying so fucking ignorant, that's your choice.

This thread is certainly living up to its title...

Very nice, thank you for the references!

You're welcome. I hope they help.

No, I'm too tired. I'm tired of being treated like a moron by ignorant people.

All of those questions have been covered at length in the books I listed in the link.

If people are unwilling to learn about their field of interest, I can't help them.

Ah, so no shortage of fuel then.

The U.S. is not going to run out of fertilizers and pesticides any time soon because both can be made with coal.

Fertilizer can also be made from hydrogen, generated by nuclear, solar, wind or hydro.

Water can be pumped with electricity generated by coal, nuclear, solar or wind.



They can (and often do) pump water with electricity.



Peak oil means higher petroleum prices. It doesn't mean an instantaneous end to all energy. People need to prepare for higher prices, not an asteroid strike.



Yah, and they're all just as dumb as the one's you've already given. Here's two clues for you:
a) Oil is not the only source of energy or feedstock
b) Peak oil is not going to cause a halt to all energy production.

My problem is your problem. It's everyone's problem. I'm not giving up. I'm asking that the problem be understood. If you have no actual response to my post, then say so.

Perhaps I'm ignorant, anyway. You're not doing anything to enlighten me with such invective, however. I understand you posted some stuff intended to educate me. I had questions. You didn't answer them. All these are verifiable facts. I cannot speak for you. But if I am ever trying to offer a point of view, and someone asks me something for which I have no answer, in my heart, I know that I am the ignorant one.

Wisdom, it has been remarked, begins in questioning.

What?

Robert Waldrop from Oklahoma City did a presentation called "Pathways to Local Food Systems" at the Community Solutions Peak Oil Conference recently. You can link to info about it here:

http://www.communitysolution.org/

I think it is a good idea to be active and planning and working with folks in your own area. There sure are no complete solutions or easy answers. We are likley to see a fair amount of suffering before we learn how to live sustainably.

We've spent much time assuming that nature has an inexhaustable supply of resources to draw from and that nature also is an infinite sink for our waste. We may or may not grow through to a deeper understanding of how we fit in.

But as far as doing our part, I think we can only "bloom where we are planted" and live as authentically as possible.

As for the technical farming and agriculture stuff, it seems best to seek out people in your bio-region and local community to work with.

-- Just my two cents worth.....

More energy intensively, but yes. This is correct. It won't be forever, and it's certainly not going to cover our fertilizer needs worldwide. I think urea has a better chance, actually. But, again, in the short term, you're right.



As I understand the state of the technology so far, it's quite a bit more expensive to do so, and the process can't be scaled up quickly. Again, you're correct, but doing so would make food horribly expensive. Hey, maybe someone will come up with that proverbial invention that's going to save us, eh?



Converting our current systems, however, will take many billions--if not trillions--of dollars. Have you got that kind of change lying around? Does anyone?



Do you have any good data?



I don't mean to suggest that it will all happen instantaneously. But this kind of "change" will happen. We need to be prepared for that.



1) If they're so dumb, then you, Ludi, or one of the people who agree with you could answer them easily.
2) You haven't heard them anyway. The fact you assume they'd be dumb (or at least consistent with what I have already asked) leads me to wonder what other assumptions you make in the place of looking at facts.



Of course not. Who said that? It's only something like 85% of all current energy and feedstock (my estimate, anyway). No worries, then.

Look, I'm not saying anyone should give up. But I'm afraid I see a lot of people not willing to face the full scope of the issue. We must do that first, and then we can work on solutions.

Oil accounts for about 35% of total world primary energy production. (From the DOE's Annual Energy Review, 2004).

Oil makes a 0% contribution as a fertilizer feedstock. Virtually all fertilizer is made, at the present time, from natural gas. According to Laherrere, NG will not be peaking globally until around 2030.
http://www.peakoil.net/JL/JeanL.html

Non-fuel use of petroleum (plastics, motor oils, lubricants) can be greatly mitigated by recycling. Motor oil, for example, does not wear out, and can be cleaned and recycled indefinitely.

Another optimistic spin on printing dollars and devaluing further the currency is that we simply wont be able to afford imported goods. This could help reinforce local regional economies, reduce consumerism and reduce oil consumption. There are some positives associated with economic recession and the US dollar collapse in restructuring our economy more local and in perhaps allowing alternative value systems to consumerism to take hold.

What both parties have in common is their ability to sense the the future.