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View unanswered posts | View active topics
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AlexdeLarge
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Post subject: Re: Warning: Global Climate Scam Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:15 am |
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Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 1677 Location: I have a whole ward
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I believe in protecting the environment, but I am a realist. I have no objection to research and to the practical application of that research into ways of limiting pollution. We do not need to use "unproven" science to destroy what little is left of the economy, raise taxes, and grow the power of the bureacracy. (ie CapNTax) Exaggerated claims undermine drive to cut emissions, scientists warnhttp://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/earth-environment/article6896152.eceQuote: Exaggerated and inaccurate claims about the threat from global warming risk undermining efforts to cut greenhouse gas emissions and contain climate change, senior scientists have told The Times. Excessive statements about the decline of Arctic sea ice, severe weather events and the probability of extreme warming in the next century detract from the credibility of robust findings about climate change, they said.
Such claims can easily be rebutted by critics of global warming science to cast doubt on the whole field. They also confuse the public about what has been established as fact, and what is conjecture.
_________________ Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.
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frankthetank
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Post subject: Re: Warning: Global Climate Scam Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:19 pm |
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Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 5849 Location: Southwest WI
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I hope i can post this here.
what will "Cap and Trade" (if passed?) do to my electric bill? I keep seeing comments here and there that my electric bill will double (or go way up)... is this true?
I think this whole "climate" thing is a bunch of BS (it will get warmer, it will get colder...its weather!...it CHANGES) and the past few years i've always thought there was a connection between warming and PO and this "Cap and Trade" BS would fit right in there (tax the hell out of us so we have less money to spend on "stuff" and also make us cut consumption....
_________________ Don't take home the fattest girl in the club, it'll affect your gas mileage...
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GASMON
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Post subject: Re: Warning: Global Climate Scam Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 2:41 pm |
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Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 1229 Location: England
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Hot off the press EU strikes climate funding deal http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8334146.stmThe EU has agreed a conditional deal on how to help other nations fight global warming, ahead of a key climate summit, but set no figure on what it would pay. The EU agreed climate change would need 100bn euros ($148bn; £90bn) a year by 2020, and would pay its "fair share", conditional on other nations. Stinks - Throwing our money away (as usual !!!) Gasmon
_________________ Been there, Done that, Bought the tee-shirt
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shortonsense
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Post subject: Re: Warning: Global Climate Scam Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 4:16 pm |
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Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 2099
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frankthetank wrote: I hope i can post this here.
what will "Cap and Trade" (if passed?) do to my electric bill? I keep seeing comments here and there that my electric bill will double (or go way up)... is this true?
Utilities have this wonderful rule which says they get to pass increased costs along to the consumer, bcause how much they are allowed to make is determined in advance. Raise their costs by $100, it certainly isn't coming out of their pocket, they divide the cost among their customers and presto, you pick up the tab for the extra $100. Or million. Or billion. Its all quite above board, and not usually mentioned by those advocating the changes "for the good of all" in the first place. As long as any system is cost neutral to the utilities it shouldn't cost you much of anything. But if it costs them more, they aren't picking up the tab, you and me is.
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Plantagenet
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Post subject: Re: Warning: Global Climate Scam Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 11:26 pm |
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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 8347 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
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1. Climate changes all the time. The planet has warmed about 1 degree C since 1900. 2. Some of this warming is natural. Some of it is due to human causes. The relative amount of each isn't well defined. 3. It isn't necessary to sign global treaties or raise taxes to reverse global warming. All we need to do is to attach a very long host to a hot-air balloon, send it up into the upper atmosphere, and inject aerosols that will increase the earth's albedo. Voila! The earth will cool. The aerosols will naturally settle after a couple of years, so the geo-enginieering is controllable and reversable. No worries, mate. superfreakonomics and how to reverse global warming
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shortonsense
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Post subject: Re: Warning: Global Climate Scam Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 8:02 am |
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Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 2099
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Plantagenet wrote: 1. Climate changes all the time. The planet has warmed about 1 degree C since 1900. 2. Some of this warming is natural. Some of it is due to human causes. The relative amount of each isn't well defined. 3. It isn't necessary to sign global treaties or raise taxes to reverse global warming. All we need to do is to attach a very long host to a hot-air balloon, send it up into the upper atmosphere, and inject aerosols that will increase the earth's albedo. Voila! The earth will cool. The aerosols will naturally settle after a couple of years, so the geo-enginieering is controllable and reversable. No worries, mate. superfreakonomics and how to reverse global warmingHere is another quite excellent article on "computer modelers vs the sedimentary record". http://www.friesian.com/crichton.htmI never realized that the hockey stick graph was such a fraud. This climate stuff is fascinating, from a science perspective.
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frankthetank
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Post subject: Re: Warning: Global Climate Scam Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:47 am |
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Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 5849 Location: Southwest WI
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The hockey stick is a freaking scam... I've only researched it lately, but basing anything on tree rings raises a ton of red flags in my opinion (temp only being one part of what effects a trees growth)...
I do believe that we are having SOME effect on the climate. I think the major effect is albedo... I think cutting down huge areas of forest/converting prairies to farmland/creating large areas of brick buildings and paving the planet with black top is having an effect (UHI)...
No matter what something is going to pop (Yellowstone? another volcano) and we will be screwed...
_________________ Don't take home the fattest girl in the club, it'll affect your gas mileage...
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yeahbut
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Post subject: Re: Warning: Global Climate Scam Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:14 pm |
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 519
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shortonsense wrote: Here is another quite excellent article on "computer modelers vs the sedimentary record" Here is some interesting research in a unique Arctic lake sedimentary record that shows how the current climate conditions differ from any in the last 200,000 years; ie the time period most relevant to human beings. linkQuote: The possibility that climate change might simply be a natural variation like others that have occurred throughout geologic time is dimming, according to evidence in a Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences paper published October 19.
The research reveals that sediments retrieved by University at Buffalo geologists from a remote Arctic lake are unlike those seen during previous warming episodes.
The sediments are considered unique because they contain rare paleoclimate information about the past 200,000 years, providing a far longer record than most other sediments in the glaciated portion of the Arctic, which only reveals clues to the past 10,000 years...
..."What is unique about these sediment cores is that even though glaciers covered this lake, for various reasons they did not erode it," said Briner, who discovered the lake in the Canadian Arctic while working on his doctoral dissertation. "The result is that we have a really long sequence or archive of sediment that has survived arctic glaciations, and the data it contains is exceptional."
"There are periods of time reflected in this sediment core that demonstrate that the climate was as warm as today," said Briner, "but that was due to natural causes, having to do with well-understood patterns of the Earth's orbit around the sun. The whole ecosystem has now shifted and the ecosystem we see during just the last few decades is different from those seen during any of the past warm intervals."
Yarrow Axford, a research associate at the University of Colorado, and the paper's lead author, noted: "The 20th century is the only period during the past 200 millennia in which aquatic indicators reflect increased warming, despite the declining effect of slow changes in the tilt of the Earth's axis which, under natural conditions, would lead to climatic cooling." A divergence like that from the natural climate cycle of the Earth is an important finding from a rare and valuable source of data. Hopefully, it might make a few people who haven't already shut off their minds to any line of enquiry that doesn't comfirm their pre-existing opinions, want to look a bit deeper.
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shortonsense
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Post subject: Re: Warning: Global Climate Scam Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:40 pm |
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Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 2099
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yeahbut wrote: shortonsense wrote: Here is another quite excellent article on "computer modelers vs the sedimentary record" Here is some interesting research in a unique Arctic lake sedimentary record that shows how the current climate conditions differ from any in the last 200,000 years; ie the time period most relevant to human beings. linkMany of these assumptions appear to have a chicken and egg component. First they claim that "yeah sure, the past was as warm as today and we know why" and then they use their models of the current increases to explain the "why". Well heck, none of this would be an argument if the IPCC wasn't running as fast as it could from ANY assumptions that past warming events were actually WORSE than whats going on today...and the AAPG wasn't demanding that their models actually match the past before they can be certain they know anything at all about today either. To date, the temperature hasn't exceeded past warmings. That makes it difficult to ramp up the hysteria level. yeahbut wrote: A divergence like that from the natural climate cycle of the Earth is an important finding from a rare and valuable source of data. Hopefully, it might make a few people who haven't already shut off their minds to any line of enquiry that doesn't comfirm their pre-existing opinions, want to look a bit deeper. I'm still happy with the basics of some 10,000 years of temperature variation. And until someone can show how their CO2 forcing based models work in a lower CO2 environment while STILL preserving obviously high past temperatures, that appears to be one of the science beefs.  The ice cores are great stuff, won awards when they came out, premo science. But the instant you request that a climate modeler backcast their models to test them against historical fact? They instantly say, "oh but we are POSITIVE its humans this time!", which isn't an answer.
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Vogelzang
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Post subject: Re: Warning: Global Climate Scam Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:38 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 249
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dorlomin
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Post subject: Re: Warning: Global Climate Scam Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:03 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 1926
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AlexdeLarge wrote: Lidzens research suggests that as the earth warms, the amount of radiation being bounced-back of the atmosphere increases. This is opposite of the UN GW models that suggest that more radiation is trapped in the earth’s atmosphere as the temperature rises. Suggests. So a 120 year old theory is a hoax because a paper in 2009 suggests that models based on that theory may not have taken all possibilites into account. And if you had read Lidzens paper you would have noted it cover the tropics. So what is you objection to the fundametal physics of the AGW theory? You still have not come out with any, although you do a fine line parrot rabid talk radio talking points. Have you take the time to goole what "infrared" means in the interim? Quote: This paper and others clearly show that more research is needed and the debate is not over.
You labour under the illusion for a scientific theory to be taken as the mainstream there must be no dissent. As you have so little background in science I can see why this ill informed position would seem tenable to you. For a conclusion to be the dominant paradigm only requires a general consensus not a complete lack of dissent. Within the field of climate science there is a strong consensus. They may be wrong, and some people do take exception to there conclusions, but all the waffle about hoaxes comes from the poorly informed political comentators on the sidelines.
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dorlomin
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Post subject: Re: Warning: Global Climate Scam Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:04 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 1926
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Plantagenet wrote: 3. It isn't necessary to sign global treaties or raise taxes to reverse global warming. All we need to do is to attach a very long host to a hot-air balloon, send it up into the upper atmosphere, and inject aerosols that will increase the earth's albedo. Voila! The earth will cool. The aerosols will naturally settle after a couple of years, so the geo-enginieering is controllable and reversable. No worries, mate.
And the consequences of reducing solar energy reaching the surface? Say evaporation rates.....
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AlexdeLarge
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Post subject: Re: Warning: Global Climate Scam Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:52 am |
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Joined: Tue May 20, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 1677 Location: I have a whole ward
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Global Warming" SCAM - Hack/Leak FLASHhttp://market-ticker.denninger.net/archives/1648-Global-Warming-SCAM-HackLeak-FLASH.htmlQuote: Apparently a "Global Climate Center" was hacked and the contents have been posted to the Internet. A ZIP file exceeding 60MB and containing a huge number of emails and other documents has been posted worldwide.
Original speculation as to whether the files posted were legitimate or some sort of spoof appears to now be confirmed as legitimate:
“It was a hacker. We were aware of this about three or four days ago that someone had hacked into our system and taken and copied loads of data files and emails.â€
I have not had time to read all of the material yet (there are over a thousand files involved!) but what I have skimmed looks VERY damning. Contained within the documents are what appear to be admissions of intentional tampering with data as well as intentional falsification of results to "show" man-made global warming. Quote: Sorry folks, there's no science here - this is, from what I see, a massive and outrageous fraud, and now that the documents have been confirmed as authentic it is time to pull the curtain down on this crap and start locking up all of the proponents - starting with AL GORE. Hmmmmmmm...............if this turns out to be legit , what will the GW faithful do?????
_________________ Viddy well, little brother. Viddy well.
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Jotapay
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Post subject: Re: Warning: Global Climate Scam Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 1:12 pm |
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Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 2954 Location: Austin, TX. The last oasis in the last free state.
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This one is even better. This is UNBELIEVABLE. http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=116657Quote: One e-mail said: "I've just completed Mike's Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd (sic) from 1961 for Keith's to hide the decline."
Another expressed internal doubts: "The fact is that we can't account for the lack of warming at the moment and it is a travesty that we can't. The CERES data published in the August BAMS 09 supplement on 2008 shows there should be even more warming: but the data are surely wrong. Our observing system is inadequate."
Further, an e-mail exchange suggested the suppression of information: "Can you delete any e-mails you may have had with Keith re AR4? Keith will do likewise. He's not in at the moment – minor family crisis."
"And, perhaps most reprehensibly," Delingpole writes, "a long series of communications discussing how best to squeeze dissenting scientists out of the peer review process. How, in other words, to create a scientific climate in which anyone who disagrees with AGW can be written off as a crank, whose views do not have a scrap of authority."
(Story continues below)
He cites an e-mail: "This was the danger of always criticizing the skeptics for not publishing in the 'peer-reviewed literature.' Obviously, they found a solution to that – take over a journal! So what do we do about this? I think we have to stop considering 'Climate Research' as a legitimate peer-reviewed journal. Perhaps we should encourage our colleagues in the climate research community to no longer submit to, or cite papers in, this journal. We would also need to consider what we tell or request of our more reasonable colleagues who currently sit on the editorial board …What do others think?"
Delingpole observes the world "is currently cooling; electorates are increasingly reluctant to support eco-policies leading to more oppressive regulation, higher taxes and higher utility bills; the tide is turning against Al Gore's Anthropogenic Global Warming theory. The so-called 'skeptical' view is now also the majority view."
Phil Jones, head of East Anglia's Climate Research Unit, confirmed to Investigate magazine the documents appeared authentic.
"It was a hacker. We were aware of this about three or four days ago that someone had hacked into our system and taken and copied loads of data files and e-mails," he said.
"It's completely illegal for somebody to hack into our system," he told the magazine
But Jones denied there was any attempt to mislead or conceal.
"They're talking about proxy data going further back in time, a thousand years, and it's just about how you add on the last few years, because when you get proxy data you sample things like tree rings and ice cores, and they don't always have the last few years," he said.
Jones said he could not recall what he meant when he wrote about a plan to "hide the decline."
In the e-mail, dated 10 years ago, Jones wrote: "Once Tim's got a diagram here we'll send that either later today or first thing tomorrow. I've just completed Mike's Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd [sic] from1961 for Keith's to hide the decline. Mike's series got the annual land and marine values while the other two got April-Sept for NH land N of 20N. The latter two are real for 1999, while the estimate for 1999 for NH combined is +0.44C wrt 61-90. The Global estimate for 1999 with data through Oct is +0.35C cf. 0.57 for 1998. Thanks for the comments, Ray. Cheers, Phil Prof. Phil Jones Climatic Research Unit."
The documents also included a message dated last month from Kevin Trenberth to Michal Mann about the "U-turn on climate" by Britain's BBC News.
"Well I have my own article on where the heck is global warming? We are asking that here in Boulder where we have broken records the past two days for the coldest days on record. We had 4 inches of snow. The high the last 2 days was below 30F and the normal is 69F, and it smashed the previous records for these days by 10F. The low was about 18F and also a record low, well below the previous record low. This is January weather (see the Rockies baseball playoff game was canceled on saturday and then played last night in below freezing weather)."
Despite the advocacy of a financially vested former vice president, Al Gore, and others, public opinion about whether mankind is causing an ultimately catastrophic rise in global temperatures is shifting.
U.S. Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas, has urged members of Congress to consider the joint opinion of nearly 32,000 scientists, including more than 9,000 Ph.D.s, who believe humans likely have little or nothing to do with any "global warming."
The Petition Project, launched some 10 years ago when the first few thousand signatures were gathered, has steadily grown without any special effort or campaign.
But in the last few years, and especially because of the release of Gore's movie "An Inconvenient Truth," the campaign has been reinvigorated.
"Mr. Gore's movie, asserting a 'consensus' and 'settled science' in agreement about human-caused global warming, conveyed the claims about human-caused global warming to ordinary movie goers and to public school children, to whom the film was widely distributed. Unfortunately, Mr. Gore's movie contains many very serious incorrect claims which no informed, honest scientist could endorse," project spokesman and founder Art Robinson has told WND.
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dorlomin
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Post subject: Re: Warning: Global Climate Scam Posted: Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:06 pm |
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Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 1926
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Jotapay wrote: One e-mail said: "I've just completed Mike's Nature trick of adding in the real temps to each series for the last 20 years (ie from 1981 onwards) amd (sic) from 1961 for Keith's to hide the decline." So out of 15 years worth of emails between the participants of a widespread global conspiracy, this is the best they can do? A single quote that could relate to god knows how much proxy data collecting and is incriminating because it adds the real data to proxies (an almost universal practice). There will be a bit of bluster over this for about a month, then it will fade into the endless dross of the climate wars and almost no one will have had there opinion changed one way or the other. One or two vocal conversions will appear in the bloggoshpere a small rumpus will run through the scientific comunity but on the whole if this is denialisms great moment, its time has almost run its course. Tempus fugit. Probibly by this time next year skepticism will have replaced denialism and most of the current oponents of AGW will be going to lengths to explain they did not doubt the core theory, just its more extreame advocates.
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