So when do we get our first electric SUV?

Not to speak for mr toejam, but the cool thing, it doesn't even matter. 270 million vehicles hooked up to the grid certainly isn't any sort of solution. But for now, for you, something like this might be a great thing.

And if you get solar and aeolic systems to generate your own electricity, you'll have a functioning and workable car post-peak(And if you look to these cars in this topic as examples, a very desirable one by today's standards, even). Just think of how 'rich' you'd be in such a scenario. Better have a few guns.

I wouldn't say that electric cars are the next muscle cars just yet. Electric powered vehicles have proven that they can go fast but we're still waiting for a economy version that everyone can use on a daily basis. We need something with more than just a bare bones race type of ev to go fast. Something like a 4 door sedan that is relatively sporty, practical for everyday use, cheap enough to afford, and offer good performance.

The only way so far to make a cheap EV, is using lead acid battery technology. While it offers good amp draw with hawker, optima, exide and other top notch battery suppliers, it lacks enough capacity. I realize that not everyone drives more than 50 miles a day, but it would be more marketable if you only had to charge it once a week or so.

Remember most of these owners of EV's are going to be those in Suburbia, not in the city, mostly because in the city you don't have many places to plug in. So if your driving from and to work from suburbia you will be using a large amount of your range. After a days commute and assuming you can't recharge at work you will have used most of your range and its time to go home to recharge in suburbia.

Other battery technologies are available like nicad,nimh,nizn,li-ion,li-polymer,zinc air, but these are much more expensive and will add significant costs to the vehicles. Lithium polymer would at this point in time, be the best option to go with as it has demonstrated it is safer than regular li-ion and that it can be shaped to fit in many different positions within a vehicle.

The most marketable vehicle for an EV at this point in time would then be a sporty 4 door sedan type of vehicle, lithium battery powered, and some sort of 230 KW + drive train, and 4 wheel drive and lightweight. This is where the market for cars is today.

Marketing for electric vehicles has also been almost non-existent, and their image has not changed over time either. If you want to sell electric cars you have to take away their dork factor and replace it with the cool factor. You also have to figure out a way to setup charging stations in homeowners garages so their electric cars can take less time to recharge, this could be offered by the automotive manufacturer with a 240 volt 20 amp setup to cut recharging times by more than half of a typical 120 volt 15 amp outlet.

Just a bunch of fools expecting our overloaded electrical grid to supply their future cars with juice.

FAT CHANCE!

The grid is nearly beyond hope now and there was almost a huge blackout in 2005 due to just airconditioners. I'm sure if we added a million cars to that it would go down every day.

Which blackout? No blackouts here.

There's AC Propulsion's all-electric Honda Civic they built in the mid 1990s.

On lead acid batteries, 100 miles highway range, 0-60 mph in 6.2 seconds, 4-doors, air conditioning, heating, and all that, and in volume of 10,000 cars per year, it would only cost $20,000 sold at a profit. Hand made, it's $75,000. This was about 10 years ago. No major auto maker touched it. Porsche Boxter acceleration for Honda Civic money.

It's unfortunate that AC Propulsion lacks mass production capability.



This is true, but not necessarily due to the costs of other cehmistries themselves. Who owns the patents and also production volume and the fact that the major auto makers refuse to touch EVs are the major factors. not the technology itself.



Those lead acid batteries can give a car 100 miles range with careful attention to aerodynamics. That's certainly marketable to many. The Wall Street Journal reported that the market for an affordable electric powered car that had at least 50 miles range was about 150,000 sales per year for the state of California alone.



Personally, I'd like suburbia to go the way of the dinosaurs.

But, it wouldn't be that difficult to set up electric vehicle charging infrastructure, either. Look at what we spent in Iraq.



True, if the battery packs and batteries themselves are hand-assembled!

AC Propulsion quotes Lithium Ion in mass production for automotive application at $250/kWh. That would be a 30 kWh $7,500 pack that would last 200,000+ miles in life and give 150-200 miles range.

Stemple, ECD chairman quoted NiMH in volume for 20,000 cars per year at $150/kWh. A 30 kWh pack to give a car 150-200 miles range would cost $4,500 and last in excess of 250,000 miles with abuse, however, if cared for, in excess of 300,000 miles. 1,750 discharge cycles to 100%. BUT, Chevron Texaco bought the patent, refuses to offer the batteries for an affordable price, and charges thousands of dollars per kWh, hence the multi-thousand dollar price premiums on the hybrids that use them.



Positions don't matter so much. An engine block and all its ancillary components didn't need to be moldable, neither does a battery pack. What's neat about the batteries is, you can build the entire pack into the floor of the car for a center of gravity that anchors it to the ground.



230 kW is very sexy to someone like myself, but for a mass market EV, overkill. A 170 horsepower EV that weighs 3,200 pounds would have no problem doing 0-60 mph in the mid 6 second range and 1/4 mile in high 14 seconds range, on par with the new Mitsubishi Eclipse GT. Electric motors make peak torque at 0 rpm, and as a general rule, for acceleration performance, one electric horsepower will be worth about 1.3 gas car horsepower.

230 kW, or 310 horsepower, would take a 4,000 pound EV from 0-60 in under 5 seconds. That would knock the rest of the auto undustry off its feet would someone be both willing and capable of mass producing a car like that. The small businesses are willing but not capable, the big automakers are capable but not willing. Unfortunate, as the beginning of peak oil will cause 70s-era anemia in our cars all over again, perhaps eliminating them altogether in the long run.



Ever wonder why? It was non-existent even when they were being offered for lease, yet every one made was successfully leased simply by word of mouth alone. Yet the industry tries to claim they weren't a success, how they only 'sold'(ie. leased and later crushed) a few hundred cars, when they only made that same number of cars to begin with.



Sadly. A lot of that is in our media.



That's one reason I'm building an electric sports car instead of an econobox.

Once that fucker is on the road, I'm going to race it, terrorize my neighborhood with it, and scare the hell out of other motorists.



This is hardly an issue. More pressing is the need for fast-charging infrastructure in public places, 480+ volts and over 200 amps, to get you 200 or more miles range with 30 minutes of charging, to make long distance travel possible with EVs.



The grid is in trouble during on peak demand, but most of the time, people would be charging at night during off peak, when up to 50% of grid capacity is available. Our grid could handle over 100 million cars charging during off-peak demand. Even if we don't have electric cars, our grid will be in big trouble in the future. We need to cut electricity consumption with more efficient appliances and install more wind farms.

If all of America's cars were to be switched to electric, we'd only see about a 15-20% increase in nationwide electricity consumption.

We could have electric cars in the city, and we could have tons of money thrown at electric cars with all the money we spent in iraq, but is it going to happen, no. In order for electric cars to work tomorrow, we need to use what we have available today. So if you live in the city guess what, you really dont have many options to plug in your electric car anywhere. This is why in today's world a electric car would be best suited for someone in suburbia, or at least where someone has their own garage where they can have their EV charging and not be tampered with by someone on the street. This is where the range factor comes into play. Since you live in suburbia, you will not be making the short trips you would driving around town, you might need a good amount of range for it to be a practical daily driver. Remember, people are lazy, they don't want to hassle with plugging in their car on a daily basis, i know its not hard to do, but i have no control over that.


I'd like to see a lead acid powered ev get 100 miles range on the highway on a consistent 5 year basis, more like 60 miles range max with normal drivers and normal aerodynamics of vehicles of today. Use Lithium Polymer batteries instead, with volume production, cost will decrease, and they are a much better alternative to lead acid.

The major factor that is causing ev's to not succed is largly their public image. Ask a random person what they think about an electric car and what their first thoughts are of it when they hear of one. I'm guessing slow, boring, goofy looking, and no range come to their minds, no? And remember, what market are you appealing this car to? Who would be most accepting of a new idea, older people or younger people? Obviously younger people, their minds aren't as shaped as those who are older. Now what do most 16 year old kids want to drive? Is it their moms station wagon or the new mitsubishi lancer evolution ???? Think about it, if you can take a car like that or similar and market it as being cool and fast but an ev, you have your market set, and at an affordable price, it would be economical.

Just a few days ago, it turns out Wayland's electric car handily defeated a Datsun 240Z with a 350 Chevy and NOS installed with. This, according to Wayland:

White Zombie absolutely spanked a Datsun Z stuffed with a 350 Chev V8 shot with NOS! He ran a 12.6, but it wasn't enough.... Tim blew his doors off in front of his V8 buddies, with an electrifying 12.2!

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/52196

More videos(although the above video isn't there, there are others of wheelie launches and one versus a Corvette...):

http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/videos.php

White Zombie is pulling low 12s now. Wayland and I(and others) both think it is possible for the car to get into the high 11s, especially after slightly taller gearing is installed. My guess is about 11.8-11.9 seconds at 110-112 mph next year. The only problem is getting enough traction off of street tires!

Oh, and there's one thing John wanted to say after seeing this topic:

Oh, and for the other guy that said, "It does take oil to keep the whole
shebang going though....we're not going to be able to continue as before
by switching to electricity."... let him know that other than having to
use a gas generator at the track because the track isn't yet geared for
electrics (this is changing for '06 PIR when they allow us to tap into
their grid and install 240 vac NEMA 1450's), my electric street legal
drag car gets all of its juice from a totally non-oil power source, zero
air pollution and foreign oil independent hydroelectric power generated
from the mighty Columbia River!

Imagine if we started using more wind and solar as well. wind now being as cheap and sometimes cheaper than coal, solar being competitive with 70s-era nuclear plants if you remove ALL subsidies and waste disposal costs. Something to think about.

For those in the midwest interested in seeing electric cars in person, talking with those who have successfully built them, or seeing them raced in person, you will want to read the following below. I will also be attending, but my electric race car will not be complete by then.


From: Chip Gribben
Date: 12/10/05
Subject: NEDRA Announces the 2005 High Voltage Nationals

Route 66 Raceway in Joliet, Illinois will be holding the HIGH VOLTAGE NATIONALS May 13, 2006.

The event is being organized by High Voltage Racing, the Fox Valley Electric Auto Association (FVEAA) and is sanctioned by the National Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA).

All pure electric vehicles (2, 3, and 4 or more wheels) are invited to participate, either as a static display or drag race in the NEDRA event.

All alternative fuel vehicles (cng, hydrogen, propane, bio diesel, veggie oil, steam, etc.) and hybrids of all makes and fuels are also welcome to participate as part of the Alternative Fuel Vehicle (AVF) Expo which is also being held at the Route 66 Raceway.

Prizes include trophies and cash awards.

This is in conjunction with the Joliet Township High School's (JTHS) Alternative Fuel Vehicle (AVF) Expo.

The event will also be held in conjunction with the 5th EVer EAA All-Chapters Conference that same weekend from May 12 to 14th which will also be hosted by the FVEAA. The 5th EVer is a gathering of EAA Chapters to conference about opportunities to promote and develop EVs.

The HIGH VOLTAGE NATIONALS will be an annual event and joins the BATTERY BEACH BURNOUT as NEDRA's two newest events for 2006. Stay tuned for more information as it develops.

Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com

Great post Toecutter.

If all American cars where somehow switched to electric, surely that would free up considerable resources that could be put into scaling up the electricity supply?



Got them a few years ago: