link

I wonder how many that is. THe simple fact of the matter is when a "terraist" blows up his enemies and ours at the same time, that "terraist" is our buddy. We have condoned torture, rape, murder etc etc, all those nasty things we love to say we are trying to rid the world of, for several decades now. Everything boils down to propaganda. If we can convince ourselves that we are doing good, while we do evil, we will do the best damn job we can.

Well unlike most of you I have spent sometime over the past years in Libya. One thing that struck me was that there seems to be a lack of large difference in classes which is completely unlike any of the other North African and/or Middle Eastern countries where I have been. The reason for this, from what I can see is that The Leader (as he likes to be called) truly cares about the welfare of his own people....there is not a huge class of people who cannot afford to live. Fuel and food are strongly subsidized by the government .....as far as I could tell everyone seems to be employed....it is a safe clean living environment. There are a number of things that have gone on in country that as outsiders we view with a different eye than one might inside.

An example would be the war with Chad and Ghadaffi's less than equitable treatment for non-Libyans. From the perspective of the average Libyan this was in defence of their own sovereignty and well-being given that there is a very large migration of Africans illegally into Libya through the rather porous borders with Chad, Sudan and Niger. They take up jobs and welfare payments at the expense of the local Libyan population. From our own perspective it makes The Leader look like some sort of demon. Note that unlike Saddam, Gaddaffi was not hell bent on taking over the neighbouring country...merely trying to protect his own borders.

To understand Gaddaffi you really need to know the history of how he took power and also his belief system. I think he saw himself as a cross between Castro and Mao Tse Tung......bringing his tribal views of socialism to bear when he wrote The Green Book. If you want to understand him you really need to read this....I think you can find it online....a truly whacked piece of literature I might add.

There is no two ways about it .....Gaddaffi is a bit of a fruitcake...he has 10 or so women trained in martial arts and weaponary as his personal bodyguards. He dresses up in more flamboyant fashion than Elton John...changing from his "lion of the desert" Berber look to his "general of the armies" full military regallia more often than one could imagine. He travels with an huge entourage of staff in a number of expensive limos but generally chooses to bring with him his tent rather than stay in a hotel. His son Saif, who everyone believes will be the next Leader is equally wacky....installing himself as owner/player on a professional football team (he is godawful at the sport)...setting up a display of his own artwork in Hyde Park (he is an equally godawful artist) and being well known as a Meditteranean playboy of sorts.

That all being said the classification of terrorist is one that I have wondered about. For years prior to my first trip to Libya I believed that this was the case....why would the US gov't lie to us? I wonder how many of the things he has been accused of he actually did. For example although Saif agreed to pay compensation for the families of the Lockerbie victims he made it clear that they did not accept blame and that they were not responsible....likewise Gaddaffi has never taken "credit" for any of the things he has been purported to be responsible for. This struck me as being unusual (although not unheard of) for a terrorist...especially one with an out of control ego like Gaddaffi. I was also somewhat surprised with the ruling at the Lockerbie trial.....the evidence presented (from what I gathered from the news reports in the Scotsman and Guardian) seemed to be less than compelling and moreso in Scottish law there is an option to find someone guilty, not guilty or not-proven guilty (where there is strong suspicion but not enough evidence). So I have wondered if there isn't some villification going on.....ie. identification of an easy nutbag target to blame everything on. Perhaps....perhaps not.
Don't get me wrong....I do not claim he was not responsible for any of these acts...entirely possible and likely given his leftist leanings. I just wonder if he was responsible for everything he is blamed for....it just doesn't make sense with the way he behaves in Libya from what I have seen and what has been told to me by Libyan acquaintances.
I guess all I am trying to say is that things are never as simple and black and white as they may seem. And certainly not as black and white as they are portrayed by the US gov't.
Oh and by the way the reason US oil companies were not in Libya for years was due to the Iran-Libya Sanctions Act imposed by the US gov't which made it illegal for US companies or citizens to work in Libya. The US gov't even tried to make this an extra-territorial law that would apply to other countries whereby they could slap sanctions on offending countries. In actual practice all the Act served to do was keep US companies out of Libya while German, Austrian, Italian and French companies made oddles of cash in the oilfields. It was a pretty stupid law in retrospect and really only served to punish US and not Libyan interests. This was the main reason it was removed...it was ineffective.

FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. -- An Arizona bookstore owner charged with ecosabotage in Washington state and suspected of arson in Colorado was found dead in a Flagstaff, Ariz., jail cell Thursday.

The Coconio County Sheriff's Office said that William Rodgers, 40, of Prescott, committed suicide. The county medical examiner determined that Rodgers suffocated after placing a plastic bag over his head while he was being held in a one-person cell.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/health/ ... etail.html

If Ghadaffi is a terrorist, so is every other world leader. For example, look at Bush spying on his own citizens, U.S. funding Sadam, then removing him, U.S. funding Bin Laden in the 80s now looking for him. Its not just the Americans, the Europeans have been very guilty of it too, for example, Britain and the Chinese drug trade. Where do we start or stop in time or in the definition of who is a terrorist? All countries are guilty of it at any point in history. Its just typical world politics and foriegn policy. At the top, all these guys are the same. That doesn't make it right, just the way it is. Its all about self-interest and the money.

I fully subscribe to the position of Michael Klare in his books "Resource Wars" and "Blood and Oil." Those books basically take the position that all foriegn policy is about the quest for finite resources which are needed to fuel an economy. These "resource wars" are ultimately expressed and seen as religious or political in nature, but at their heart, it is a quest for control of resources - oil is a classic example, but in the past it has been other things like gold, wood, etc.

Whether one is branded a "terrorist" or an "ally" depends who you is ask and is based on who they are allied with at any particular time. That's why a guy like Ghaddafi is branded a "terrorist" by the United States in the 70s when he supported an oil embargo against the west, yet now, he is an ally, ultimately, bc he is allowing the U.S. access to his oil.

`promoting freedom and democracy`

**translation**

attacking other countries in future resource wars.





Anti-terrorism language training

Very good explanations, a lot of things make more sense now. Nice to have knowledgeable people here who have "been around a few times."

Ch-ch-changes

Just gonna have to be a different man

Time may change me

But I cant trace time

At some point people are going to have to make a stand if they want to keep the Constitution or else allow us to slip into a semi-dictatorship run by a technocracy.

Mos is the first card-carrying Democrat on this site to break rank and acknowledge that Bush the 3rd is looking a whole lot like Bush the 2nd.

Any other CCDs want to step up and acknowledge that their man is starting to stink?

By the way - I despise both sides of the aisle - not a Bush the 2nd supporter here.

I've seen no sign of Mos breaking rank with Obama. Mos was against preventative detention when Bush was doing it, but is behind Obama when he wants to do it. Mos was against military tribunals when Bush did it but is behind Obama when he does military tribunals. Mos was against Bush when he withheld photos, but is in favor of Obama when he withholds photos. Mos was against the surge in Iraq when Bush did it, but is in favor of the surge in Aghanistan when Obama does it. Where has Mos broken ranks with Obama and said Obama looks a whole lot like Bush?

Mos...can you clarify this please? Have you broken ranks with Obama? Do you now think that Obama is looking a whole lot like Bush?

Article is subscription only.

In the rush to respond to 911 a bunch of immediate decisions
had to be made and in such conditions some can be very
good and very bad. I know this American and most that I
personally know backed President Bush on the many things
that he did right.

Captured Al Qaeda or terrorist operatives need to be held when
captured until the conflict is resolved as prisoners of war, and
the system has to be collaboratively adjusted to make this
fit within the framework of all three branches of federal government.
This gets dicier when the executive branch is running in an
insular cocoon and ends up with a mix of real terrorists,
people of unknown status, and most probably people turned
in for bounties or to settle personal scores because the
situation presented a convenient mechanism for doing so.

Watching Dick Cheney, who acted like an all powerful corporate
mogul in draconian secrecy rather than an elected official
and his minister of propaganda who were so insular and
secret during their empowered reign, out trolling for self
protection and historic spin in the public forums of political
think tank forums and tawdry cable news outlets is simply pitiful.
Leaving the nastiest and persistent vestiges of their own failed
policies for their successor to clean up and attempt to fit back
within the bounds of constitutional government, and then
beating their gums in the attempt to justify what they worked
their asses off to bury and spin and stiff arm when they actually
were in power and had the authority to take their wins and crow
and their mistakes and temper them, is disgraceful.

I propose that when you use fear as your main tool,
you get to the place where fear is the necessary ingredient
to accomplish your work. You begin to sow fear, nurture fear,
extoll why fear is the proper course, and finally how you are
the intercessor between fear and the common person.
In my opinion Cheney is a fear monger in denial that his
favorite tool is not providing the power for his ideology
that he has come to rely upon.

Be afraid, be very afraid, it is great for rapid promotion of a
minority ideology on a large scale basis, and it lets a
secretive set of little men play large until they encounter
the limits of their own smallness. But wait, they still have
a message for you to consider:

Be afraid, be very afraid, let Uncle Dick and Don take the wheel
of the stealthmobile.

And I ain't a card carrying Democrat either, I pick out the best
of what makes it to the ballot and vote. City people just seem
to forget that chickenhawks eat chickens once they're done
scaring them and picking a nice one out to target. That's
why chickenhawks are always working hard to promote
as many chickens as possible. Be afraid, be very afraid.

Yes, Uncle Dick and Uncle Don were very bad 7 years ago.

But things are much better now that Uncle Barrack has taken the wheel of the stealthmobile, and is following the same policies of Uncle Dick and Uncle Don?

The site is filled with partisan hacks

Can't any of you tell it doesn't matter? I don't even care if you are talking 3rd party

Nobody is put into power in this country unless they can be brought to tow the line.

Stop being fucking morons and give up on this political hackery bullshit.