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Tanada
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Post subject: Re: Water desalination breakthrough? Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:20 am |
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Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 4991 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
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FreakOil wrote: From the article: Quote: The key to the success is a technology called "reverse osmosis". Essentially this involves water being pushed through a membrane or filter at a very high pressure. That high pressure means it uses a lot of energy. At the Ashkelon plant they have cut the costs by building their own power station as part of the unit. This is the Achille's heal of desalination. I suppose you could use nuclear power, and that's another reason for Iran to build its own nuclear power plants.
While I advocate Nuclear fission for all sorts of uses desalination via osmosis just needs pressure. You can get that pressure from intermittent sources because you can resevoir the fresh water easily enough, sources like wind and solar coupled with water towers to keep pressure steady when they are off line will prodive you with lots of drinking and irrigating water, coupled with these new energy efficient pressure exchangers just makes it cheaper.
_________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
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mekrob
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Post subject: Re: Water desalination breakthrough? Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:32 pm |
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Joined: Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:00 am Posts: 2644
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Tanada wrote: FreakOil wrote: From the article: Quote: The key to the success is a technology called "reverse osmosis". Essentially this involves water being pushed through a membrane or filter at a very high pressure. That high pressure means it uses a lot of energy. At the Ashkelon plant they have cut the costs by building their own power station as part of the unit. This is the Achille's heal of desalination. I suppose you could use nuclear power, and that's another reason for Iran to build its own nuclear power plants. While I advocate Nuclear fission for all sorts of uses, desalination via osmosis just needs pressure. You can get that pressure from intermittent sources because you can reservoir the fresh water easily enough, sources like wind and solar coupled with water towers to keep pressure steady when they are off line will prodive you with lots of drinking and irrigating water, coupled with these new energy efficient pressure exchangers just makes it cheaper.
Couldn't you just make the tower of seawater very high and have the membranes and tubes near the bottom? Or are the pressures needed for it to work simply too high for this to be feasible? Is it also not economical to "simply" process the remaining brine into the components (salts, metals, etc) for further industrial uses? Or is that simply too unrealistic?
_________________ I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God. - Rabia
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Tanada
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Post subject: Re: Water desalination breakthrough? Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:28 pm |
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Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 4991 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
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mekrob wrote: Tanada wrote: FreakOil wrote: From the article: Quote: The key to the success is a technology called "reverse osmosis". Essentially this involves water being pushed through a membrane or filter at a very high pressure. That high pressure means it uses a lot of energy. At the Ashkelon plant they have cut the costs by building their own power station as part of the unit. This is the Achille's heal of desalination. I suppose you could use nuclear power, and that's another reason for Iran to build its own nuclear power plants. While I advocate Nuclear fission for all sorts of uses, desalination via osmosis just needs pressure. You can get that pressure from intermittent sources because you can reservoir the fresh water easily enough, sources like wind and solar coupled with water towers to keep pressure steady when they are off line will prodive you with lots of drinking and irrigating water, coupled with these new energy efficient pressure exchangers just makes it cheaper. Couldn't you just make the tower of seawater very high and have the membranes and tubes near the bottom? Or are the pressures needed for it to work simply too high for this to be feasible?Is it also not economical to "simply" process the remaining brine into the components (salts, metals, etc) for further industrial uses? Or is that simply too unrealistic?
That's what I was talking about when I said water towers, pump water into a series of water towers filled with filtered seawater and then let gravity provide the presure at a steady rate. This system would not requir constant power, the pumps would fill the towers when power was availible from intermittent sources. Only when water was running low in all the towers would baseload sources be needed to sumplement pumping power.
It is not economical to process the remaining brine to recover salt unless you were doing so on a large scale already, salt doesn't sell for much money and you need a huge acreage of dessert land to dump out the brine and let it evaporate. To evaporate as much brine as you process to make freshwater for human use is some orders of magnitude too much salt for economic recovery.
_________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
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Tanada
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Post subject: Re: Water desalination breakthrough? Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:11 pm |
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Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 4991 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
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It occured to me today that out west in the New Mexico-Colorado-Idaho axis of the country that there are several saline aquifers. If you drill a well into one of these saline aquifers, run the resulting water through a reverse osmosis plant to recover some 40% of the water as potable fresh water and sell it to the ranchers & farmers in the Los Alamos region you would have to figure out what to do with the concentrated saline discharge.
Any suggestions other than picking a dry lake bed and just dumping it out where nature will eventually evaporate it away? With a 100,000 m^3 day plant that would give you 150,000 m^3 discharge stream. Now while that sounds like a lot if you are dumping it into a large dry lake bed the desert heat and lack of humidity is going to evaporate it pretty rapidly. If that doesn't work for you you could always dump it into the Great Salt Lake, unless Utah has some objection.
_________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
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lorenzo
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Post subject: Veolia's Desalination Costs Triple on Energy Prices Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:24 am |
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Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2005 1:00 am Posts: 2233
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Found this in French, but Bloomberg has a nice write-up. Just for the Great Peak Oil Archives: Quote: Veolia's Desalination Costs Triple on Energy Prices (Update2) June 26, 2008. - Veolia Environnement SA, the world's biggest water company, said the cost of purifying seawater has tripled because of higher energy prices, squeezing profit margins. The cost of producing water from desalination plants may have risen to as much as $1.60 per cubic meter from as low as 50 cents "in the last few years,'' Jean-Michel Herrewyn, chief executive officer of Veolia Water Solutions & Technologies, said in an interview in Singapore yesterday.
Power is the largest cost at a desalination plant, which filters millions of gallons of seawater into drinking water by straining out salt, bacteria and minerals. Industry margins at desalination plants, typically between 10 and 15 percent, are shrinking as fuel costs increase. "The cost curves are going up,'' Herrewyn said. ``If we have to reduce the price of desalinated water, we have to reduce the price of energy.''
Veolia shares fell 32 cents, or 0.9 percent, to 35.73 euros at 1:49 p.m. in Paris today. The stock has lost 43 percent this year, compared with a 20 percent decline in the CAC 40 Index, on investor concern over profit margins due to currency losses and higher cost inflation on water and waste projects. Profit targets may be "difficult to achieve,'' Veolia Senior Executive Vice President Jerome Contamine said in a posting on French financial Web site LeRevenue.com last week.
Low Margins: Crude oil has doubled in the past year and touched a record $139.89 on June 16, while natural gas futures in New York have gained 70 percent this year, pushing up costs of producing electricity. Almost 700 million people in Asia lack access to clean water and about 2 billion are without adequate drainage, according to Manila-based Asian Development Bank.
"Water is a much slower developing market because the margins are low,'' said Lisa Henthorne, president of the International Desalination Association. "We can't charge 50 to 100 percent margins for bulk water because it is still a social good.'' The margins in desalination are between 10 and 15 percent, she said. Even so, sales in Asia's water-purification market will increase by as much as 20 percent in the next three to five years, outpacing the world, Herrewyn said. Veolia may get "very sizeable'' municipal contracts for desalination, reuse and recycling in the range of $100 million, he said.
Rising Pollution: "The booming economies of China and India are very attractive,'' Herrewyn said in a Bloomberg TV interview today in Singapore. "One of the main, if not the leading, growth areas now is the Middle East.'' Rising levels of pollution in developing economies are creating more opportunities for business, Dan McCarthy, chief executive officer of Black & Veatch Corp., a U.S. engineering and construction company that provides water-treatment services, said in a TV interview today. "We do focus on the hot developing marketplaces because they do have challenges from very basic needs,'' McCarthy said. The public is "looking at sustainable solutions more aggressively than they had before.''
China's government plans 1 trillion yuan ($146 billion) of spending to build waste water-treatment plants in the five years through 2010, the Ministry of Construction said in August. As many as 278 cities lack proper treatment facilities, it said. link
Water. It's quite important to the human body. Arabs are going to be in serious trouble if they don't invest in solar power soon. In any case, if you had the choice to die of Peak Oil related causes, would you rather starve to death or die of a lack of water? Best thing to do is to get a bottle of ethanol first, to get drunk, so you can die in delirium.
_________________ The Beginning is Near!
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smallpoxgirl
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Post subject: Re: Veolia's Desalination Costs Triple on Energy Prices Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:46 am |
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Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 7742
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lorenzo wrote: Water. It's quite important to the human body. Arabs are going to be in serious trouble if they don't invest in solar power soon. I can't imagine why they aren't using a solar process to desalinate the water in the first place. Why not just paint a pool black. Put a clear cover over it. Fill it with seawater. Run cool seawater through some pipes near the cover and collect the condensate from the outside of the pipes. Viola...solar distillation. Ultra low tech, and requires minimal energy input.
_________________ "We were standing on the edges
Of a thousand burning bridges
Sifting through the ashes every day
What we thought would never end
Now is nothing more than a memory
The way things were before
I lost my way" - OCMS
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Tanada
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Post subject: Re: Veolia's Desalination Costs Triple on Energy Prices Posted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 4:58 am |
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Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 4991 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
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smallpoxgirl wrote: I can't imagine why they aren't using a solar process to desalinate the water in the first place. Why not just paint a pool black. Put a clear cover over it. Fill it with seawater. Run cool seawater through some pipes near the cover and collect the condensate from the outside of the pipes. Viola...solar distillation. Ultra low tech, and requires minimal energy input.
Mostly its a case of volume, with a semi-passive solar design like you propose the throughput of fresh water is pretty small. To figure it out you need to know two things, your local pan evaporation rate and the area of your pool. In my area that averages around 1000mm/y or 2.75mm/day. If your proposed pool is 3 meters in diameter your area is just over 7 meters square. (7*2.75)*100=1,925 mL or just under two liters of distilled water unless I screwed up my math somewhere, which is ALWAYS possible. Meanwhile if you use a windmill powered pump and a simple water tower/reverse osmosis system you could get that much out of seawater every minute or so the wind blows.
The big Fusion reactor in the center of the solar system will outlast all of us, but the energy we get from it is very diffuse indeed.
_________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
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kublikhan
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:25 pm |
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Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2007 1:00 am Posts: 939 Location: Illinois
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ernest wrote: a few million gallons a day is not going to change the face of the mideast either. Natural evaporation takes place over the entire surface of the ocean. Desalination takes the brine and concentrates it one place. Not a problem for one plant. As a solution to third world water shortage? I have my doubts. I also have doubts as to how eco-friendly this technology will be if deployed on a large scale. It is not just the brine discharge that is a problem. The intake is a problem as well. You are sucking in not just salty water, but marine organisms as well. Typically these organisms end up dead by the time they are finally discharged from the RO plant. Then their is the discharge. The salt concentration doubles from 35,000 ppm in the water intake to 70,000 ppm in the brine discharge. And you are not just concentrating salt, you are concentrating chemicals and pollutants as well. There are approaches you can take to minimize the ecological impact of both the intake and discharge(sandy soil pre-filtration, large area diffusers, etc.), but these are not always applicable in all areas.
Desalination
_________________ The oil barrel is half-full.
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Tanada
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Post subject: Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:52 pm |
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Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2005 12:00 am Posts: 4991 Location: West shore Lake Eire, MI, USA
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kublikhan wrote: ernest wrote: a few million gallons a day is not going to change the face of the mideast either. Natural evaporation takes place over the entire surface of the ocean. Desalination takes the brine and concentrates it one place. Not a problem for one plant. As a solution to third world water shortage? I have my doubts. I also have doubts as to how eco-friendly this technology will be if deployed on a large scale. It is not just the brine discharge that is a problem. The intake is a problem as well. You are sucking in not just salty water, but marine organisms as well. Typically these organisms end up dead by the time they are finally discharged from the RO plant. Then their is the discharge. The salt concentration doubles from 35,000 ppm in the water intake to 70,000 ppm in the brine discharge. And you are not just concentrating salt, you are concentrating chemicals and pollutants as well. There are approaches you can take to minimize the ecological impact of both the intake and discharge(sandy soil pre-filtration, large area diffusers, etc.), but these are not always applicable in all areas.
As you said yourself a very low tech sand prefilter takes care of the macrobiotic intake problem. As for the rejected stream with its high concentrations of salts and contaminants, install a bleeping long plastic pipe that leads to the edge of the continental shelf before the water is released. The discharge water is higher density, therefor once off the edge of the shelf it will sink to the bottom where it will eventually mix with the cold bottom water just like the natural saline discharge from the Med basin does in the Atlantic today. Adding an oxygenation step before it enters the discharge pipe would also help buffer any bottom dwellers it encounters on the abyssal plain. Additionally if you put a longer pipe together actually going down the slope of the continental shelf for a few hundred feet with a water turbine on the bottom end you would be able to generate a healthy electric current to use to help offset the energy expense of the plant. The saline discharge water has more mass than average sea water so it will sink under gravity and provide its own 'head' pressure that could be harnessed for energy recovery.
_________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
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kiwichick
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Post subject: Re: THE Desalination Thread (merged) Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:45 am |
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Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 407 Location: berrigan NSW OZ
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why not create zero emission baseload power and desalinate water at the same time ?
wwwceto.com.au
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TheAntiDoomer
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Post subject: Cheaper desalination Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:11 am |
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Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 575
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Revelant to oil, in that a cheap desalination method powered by the sun would make sense for Middle Eastern countries and possibly California (using solar rather than oil to desalinate water) http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/10/31 ... salinationQuote: THERE is a lot of water on Earth, but more than 97% of it is salty and over half of the remainder is frozen at the poles or in glaciers. Meanwhile, around a fifth of the world’s population suffers from a shortage of drinking water and that fraction is expected to grow. One answer is desalination—but it is an expensive answer because it requires a lot of energy. Now, though, a pair of Canadian engineers have come up with an ingenious way of using the heat of the sun to drive the process. Such heat, in many places that have a shortage of fresh water, is one thing that is in abundant supply.
_________________ Do I make you Corny?
Last edited by TheAntiDoomer on Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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pstarr
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Post subject: Re: Cheaper desalination Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:40 am |
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Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 10085 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
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TheAntiDoomer wrote: Revelant to oil, in that a cheap desalination method powered by the sun would make sense for Middle Eastern countries and possibly California (using solar rather than oil to desalinate water) http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/energy/24337/Quote: THERE is a lot of water on Earth, but more than 97% of it is salty and over half of the remainder is frozen at the poles or in glaciers. Meanwhile, around a fifth of the world’s population suffers from a shortage of drinking water and that fraction is expected to grow. One answer is desalination—but it is an expensive answer because it requires a lot of energy. Now, though, a pair of Canadian engineers have come up with an ingenious way of using the heat of the sun to drive the process. Such heat, in many places that have a shortage of fresh water, is one thing that is in abundant supply. There is nothing ingenious about this. You boil the water and condense out the steam--100% pure H2O. What is ingenious is that the dumb story made it into a technology journal. As a groundbreaking idea, this is right up there with hand washing or dodge ball 
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crude_intentions
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Post subject: Re: Cheaper desalination Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:20 pm |
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Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:00 am Posts: 221 Location: South Carolina
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pstarr wrote: As a groundbreaking idea, this is right up there with hand washing or dodge ball  No this is more innovative than that if it works the way they say it does. The average human uses around 500 litres of fresh water a day (Bathing, clothes washing, drinking, toliet flush, ect). A large size Window AC unit uses around 1.5KWh. So on "Paper" it potentially breaks down that for the same amount of energy used to cool a house for an hour this process could provide a familty of three with drinking water for a day. Of course as anyone who works in the technology field will tell you "Everything works on paper" Quote: Even the best reverse-osmosis plants require 3.7 kilowatt hours (kWh) of energy to produce 1,000 litres of drinking water.Mr Sparrow and Mr Zoshi, by contrast, reckon they can produce that much fresh water with less than 1 kWh of electricity, and no other paid-for source of power is needed. Their process is fuelled by concentration gradients of salinity between different vessels of brine. These different salinities are brought about by evaporation. Quote: the low pressure of the pumps needed (in contradistinction to those employed in reverse osmosis) means the brine can be transported through plastic pipes rather than steel ones. Since brine is corrosive to steel, that is another advantage of Mr Sparrow’s and Mr Zoshi’s technology.
_________________ Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.
- Albert Einstein
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pstarr
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Post subject: Re: Cheaper desalination Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:48 pm |
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Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:00 am Posts: 10085 Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
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So it uses osmosis like expensive home filtration system rather than heat. Less power, same amount of energy. i.e. it takes longer and the equipment is bigger.
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