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View unanswered posts | View active topics
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RedStateGreen
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Post subject: Re: A plan that works, etc Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:13 pm |
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Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 1819 Location: Oklahoma, USA
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davep wrote: That's why an anarchist movement based on local consenus is the only way forward. Any centralised system will perpetuate the existing power structure.
I'll drink to that. ![icon_thumright [smilie=icon_thumright.gif]](./images/smilies/icon_thumright.gif)
_________________ Conservation is conservative
efarmer wrote: "Taste the sizzling fury of fajita skillet death you marauding zombie goon!" First thing to ask: Cui bono?
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mos6507
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Post subject: Re: A plan that works, etc Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:14 pm |
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 7173 Location: Boston Suburbs
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Ludi wrote: Here's my husband's "plan" along the lines of the model given by Vtsnowedin: "Everyone will stop being dumb."
Hey ReverseEngineer, read up. Wisdom doesn't require word count.
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davep
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Post subject: Re: A plan that works, etc Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:27 pm |
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Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:00 am Posts: 2290 Location: Europe
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Christ, I was expecting a flame-fest
I guess I underestimated the intelligence of PO posters, sorry!
_________________ All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha
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vtsnowedin
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Post subject: Re: A plan that works, etc Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 12:32 pm |
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Joined: Fri Jul 11, 2008 12:00 am Posts: 1394
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 How will they inforce it?? I'm guessing it won't be with UN sanctions.
Out of the four out of six that have died a preponderance were the religous fanatics and towards the end of the dieoff the quickest way to mass an world wide coalition army against you was to declare yourself and your people gods chosen ones. The world took the view that the only safe thing for everbody else to do was speed you and yours on your way to heaven.
So except for the religous details everybody loves the rest of my plan . Right?
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Ludi
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Post subject: Re: A plan that works, etc Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:19 pm |
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Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 14789 Location: The Hourglass of Doom
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davep wrote: That's why an anarchist movement based on local consenus is the only way forward. Any centralised system will perpetuate the existing power structure.
Yep, I'm 100% in favor of that plan. Or diversity of plans, I should say.
Obviously the totalitarians will never agree with the anarchists. 
_________________ Queen of the Climate Change Cult
"I can type almost a hundred words a minute." - Velociryx
"If you plan on moving to Detroit, maybe you should train ahead of time by playing Fallout 3." - rangerone314
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mos6507
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Post subject: Re: A plan that works, etc Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:24 pm |
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 7173 Location: Boston Suburbs
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Ludi wrote: Obviously the totalitarians will never agree with the anarchists. 
Isn't there anything acceptable along the continuum between totalitarian and anarchist?
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Ludi
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Post subject: Re: A plan that works, etc Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:29 pm |
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Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 14789 Location: The Hourglass of Doom
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mos6507 wrote: Isn't there anything acceptable along the continuum between totalitarian and anarchist?
Democracy doesn't seem too bad.  What would you suggest?
_________________ Queen of the Climate Change Cult
"I can type almost a hundred words a minute." - Velociryx
"If you plan on moving to Detroit, maybe you should train ahead of time by playing Fallout 3." - rangerone314
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davep
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Post subject: Re: A plan that works, etc Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:36 pm |
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Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:00 am Posts: 2290 Location: Europe
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mos6507 wrote: Ludi wrote: Obviously the totalitarians will never agree with the anarchists.  Isn't there anything acceptable along the continuum between totalitarian and anarchist?
What is that continuum? It's either centrally controlled and (eventually) rotten to the core, or it isn't. This is binary, not a continuum.
_________________ All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha
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Plantagenet
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Post subject: Re: A plan that works, etc Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:37 pm |
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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 8346 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
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mos6507 wrote: Ludi wrote: Obviously the totalitarians will never agree with the anarchists.  Isn't there anything acceptable along the continuum between totalitarian and anarchist?
As long as countries consist of tens of millions of people, local anarcho-syndicalist communes aren't actually going to govern countries---there would have to be some form of representative government. I'm still a fan of Thomas Jefferson's model of the original 18th century US-style constitutional government, where government's duties are limited, checks and balances restrict the power of all parts of the government, and the ability to vote is limited to an educated subset of the population.
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davep
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Post subject: Re: A plan that works, etc Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 3:48 pm |
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Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:00 am Posts: 2290 Location: Europe
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Plantagenet wrote: and the ability to vote is limited to an educated subset of the population.
And who decides? This is not workable, ultimately, as it is bound to be abused. Nothing but local consensus can work, IMO.
There's nothing wrong with mercantile and defence agreements at a higher level, but not control.
_________________ All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha
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mos6507
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Post subject: Re: A plan that works, etc Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 4:18 pm |
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Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:00 am Posts: 7173 Location: Boston Suburbs
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davep wrote: Nothing but local consensus can work, IMO.
What is "local consensus"? All of my own family doesn't even get along with eachother. My daughter whines when I tell her to brush her teeth or go to bed. People are independently minded by nature and all forms of leadership require a certain amount of coersion.
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Ludi
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Post subject: Re: A plan that works, etc Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 6:04 pm |
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Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 14789 Location: The Hourglass of Doom
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Mutual support is a coercion which has worked well for the majority of human cultures. I'll support you if you support me. Don't support me and I'll drop you like a hot potato. If we both agree to support each other, then we've reached consensus. It's not really all that difficult, in my experience.
_________________ Queen of the Climate Change Cult
"I can type almost a hundred words a minute." - Velociryx
"If you plan on moving to Detroit, maybe you should train ahead of time by playing Fallout 3." - rangerone314
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Pops
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Post subject: Re: A plan that works, etc Posted: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:07 pm |
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Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 8178 Location: My Grandkids' Farm
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Th original post has been deleted so I'm gonna say:
Make a plan and work it, if it don't - change it.
_________________ The best buy to prepare for peak oil is buying less.
Make a plan and work it. -- Me
www.MyGrandKidsFarm.com
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Ludi
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Post subject: Re: A plan that works, etc Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:18 am |
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Joined: Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:00 am Posts: 14789 Location: The Hourglass of Doom
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Pops, apparently some people expect others to make a plan for them, and if they don't like it, they want others to come up with additional plans until they see one they like.
"We've tried nothin' and we're all out of ideas."
_________________ Queen of the Climate Change Cult
"I can type almost a hundred words a minute." - Velociryx
"If you plan on moving to Detroit, maybe you should train ahead of time by playing Fallout 3." - rangerone314
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dohboi
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Post subject: Re: A plan that works, etc Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:29 am |
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Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:00 am Posts: 2096
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Back on the religion thing--most religions are complex enough that they have components that are at least sustainable. In the West, Christians have seized on the "dominate the earth" language in the Bible and have tended to disregard the many other pro-earth, anti-anthropocentric passages.
I think there are some fundamental problems with most monotheisms ultimately, but there is plenty of room for pro-earth understanding of the texts.
Glad to hear there are so many anarchists on the line. My view has always been that anarchism is more of an mode of action--always distrusting and working to weaken strong concentrations of power while encouraging more diffuse power structures--than an attainable, static, utopian state.
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