How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:19 am Post subject: Air France eyes move to railways - way to go
Quote:
Air France eyes move to railways
Air France is holding talks on a joint venture that could lead to it offering high-speed rail travel.
The airline confirmed reports it was discussing a possible tie-up with Veolia, a French utility firm that also runs several rail services.
Commentators suggest such a deal would enable the airline to cut fuel costs by moving some services onto the railways.
Under the plans Veolia would run trains from Air France's hub airport in Paris to other European destinations.
"We are reviewing the feasibility and possibility of such a project, but it is too early to discuss its terms," an Air France spokesman told the Reuters news agency.
Competition plans
The joint venture is likely to remain focused on international travel as, under European Union plans, legislation is set to free up the international rail passenger market in 2010.
Veolia has previously run public rail franchises in several countries worldwide under the now-defunct Connex brand. It now runs continental Europe's largest private freight service and several rail connections.
With significant improvements being made to the network of high speed rail routes in Europe the potential of such services is improving.
As it confirmed reports of the talks, Air France added it had been looking at launching its own rail links over the past four years as it had been unhappy with the service provided when it had bought rail seats off existing train operators.
And so Peak Oil will bring Europe once again back to the great era of public works that yield millions of jobs.
Sure, private companies (like airlines) will suck up all the capacity of liberalised rail in Europe. But after that we want to expand, as modernity continues its push towards ever more efficient mass mobility.
And that means the state will become involved, providing secure and well paid jobs.
Anyone remember Jacques Delors, who rightly saw the construction of the TGV as a European unifying move?
These are exciting times. _________________ The Beginning is Near!
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Air France eyes move to railways - way to go
Actual, when booking a ticket that Air France or Lufthansa is the carrier, you sometimes will be booked using the TGV-SNCF or ICE-deBahn as the final leg of the trip. I have traveled to Lyon with a ticket booked that way. It is part of their transportation system. They been doing this for years. It sounds like they are getting more integrated with rail, great news.
Is is great to land in Frankfurt and a short walk to the train station at the airport and take the ICE or other rail services to your destination. Virtually all the airports in Europe have a rail link to it.
In fact, I renew my dieBahn-25 card every year. At 53euros per year, well worth the price for the discount for rail tickets. And i get frequent traveler points as well as first class upgrades.
And their 2nd class cars make the airline 1st class seating look like the cattle haul section. You can walk around, talk on your cell phone (unless you are in a "quiet car", then you go to a vestibule area or the cafe), go grab something to eat, plug in your laptop, recline your seat, play cards with your friends at the table seats,...ok enough. None of this strapped in your seat and don't bring any liquids on board. _________________ THE SIMPLE LIFE: One frozen pond, a few sticks, a little round puck, and a bunch of rowdy kids.
Joined: Sep 08, 2005 Posts: 569 Location: Atlanta, GA
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:55 am Post subject: Re: Air France eyes move to railways - way to go
Quote:
And so Peak Oil will bring Europe once again back to the great era of public works that yield millions of jobs.
Sure, private companies (like airlines) will suck up all the capacity of liberalised rail in Europe. But after that we want to expand, as modernity continues its push towards ever more efficient mass mobility.
And that means the state will become involved, providing secure and well paid jobs.
Awesome...+1 for this post.
I just wish we could have the same attitude towards government here in the States...
In the post-peak era....huge government programs and public works projects is the ONLY way to go. Any other way of doing things is doomed from the start. I just wish folks in the US would start getting a clue how capitalism's time has come and gone.
Europe, especially France, is the place to be in the decades to come. I envy you guys...I really do. _________________ Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide...
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Air France eyes move to railways - way to go
Agreed, +1.
Southwest, Delta, American, United - stay tuned, I hope you all are watching. _________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Air France eyes move to railways - way to go
emersonbiggins wrote:
Agreed, +1.
Southwest, Delta, American, United - stay tuned, I hope you all are watching.
Actually there was an attempt to do this back in the '60's and the Pennsylvania RR was trying to create a rail/airline system to deal with short/medium haul and long haul. The PRR Panhandle line from the east went through Columbus and the airport was there to transport passengers further west. Thus, the airport code CMH- Columbus Metro Hub.
The federal government said, no, it would be a monopoly. That, and the poor management running the PRR, then to be the Penn Central (enough on that subject) and we are where we are at today.
SO as the federal government paved out the interstate system, paved out the airport system, we now have what we have today. Jimmy Buffet had a great song "She's A Railroad Lady" that sums it up along with the another classic song "City of New Orleans" by another writer.
"The railroads are dying and the lady she's crying on a bus to Kentucky and a long ways from home..." _________________ THE SIMPLE LIFE: One frozen pond, a few sticks, a little round puck, and a bunch of rowdy kids.
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Air France eyes move to railways - way to go
Byron100 wrote:
Quote:
And so Peak Oil will bring Europe once again back to the great era of public works that yield millions of jobs.
Sure, private companies (like airlines) will suck up all the capacity of liberalised rail in Europe. But after that we want to expand, as modernity continues its push towards ever more efficient mass mobility.
And that means the state will become involved, providing secure and well paid jobs.
Awesome...+1 for this post.
I just wish we could have the same attitude towards government here in the States...
In the post-peak era....huge government programs and public works projects is the ONLY way to go. Any other way of doing things is doomed from the start. I just wish folks in the US would start getting a clue how capitalism's time has come and gone.
Europe, especially France, is the place to be in the decades to come. I envy you guys...I really do.
I think you're onto something.
My country neighbors France, and we are dependent on its fantastic nuclear power plants for 50% of our electricity.
The French model - one of "etatism" - will definitely rule in the very near future.
France is the country with the strongest energy security in the world, with the best nuclear scientists on the planet, with the best health care in the world (according to the OECD and the WHO), with the best public education institutions, and the best public and mobility services (notably rail).
France has the world's second most succesful space program, now controlling 98% of all commercial satellite launches. France has ITER, nukes, and the world's best intervention and peacekeeping army. Very good cars too, with a steady market share. France has the biggest and best airplanes in the world (even though this industry will soon die).
All this is due to the intervention of the strong state. France is probably the most "serious" state on the planet, offering its citizens not only personal security, but social and economic security as well.
To come back to highspeed rail. Nobody can say that the "Pentagone", as France is called, has geographical advantages that are conducive to mass transit and that can't be found elsewhere. France as a whole is less densely populated than most regions on the American West, East and South Coast. So the idea to slash Amtrak or to nuke high-speed mass transit ideas, is really dumb. America can build these infrastructures. Its people would benefit massively.
I'm actually quite proud that my country largely follows the French socio-economic model, instead of the overly liberalised Anglosaxon model (even though we are less rigid than France).
Today, people can bash France. But in the future, those who have followed its model will prove to have made a good choice. _________________ The Beginning is Near!
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1106 Location: Everywhere
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Air France eyes move to railways - way to go
Before we get too excited - I live in rural France, about 30km from the nearest railway station and about 120 from the nearest TVA line. Without liquid fuels our local town would be totally f****d (even though we are in a food-producing area).
Just thought I'd say that. Please carry on...
JP _________________ The three most beautiful things in the world -
a full-rigged ship, a woman with child and a full moon.
Joined: Sep 16, 2004 Posts: 4230 Location: Southwest WI
Posted: Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:08 pm Post subject: Re: Air France eyes move to railways - way to go
Plus all the beaches are nudie beaches.
France has the right idea. _________________ "Oil is going up because we use too much oil, and the capacity to replace reserves is dwindling"
-President Bush 11/07/07
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Air France eyes move to railways - way to go
lorenzo wrote:
[France has the world's best intervention and peacekeeping army. Very good cars too, with a steady market share. France has the biggest and best airplanes in the world (even though this industry will soon die).
Peacekeeping army ? Suppose so, not up for a fight much, are they ?.
Yes, French cars good. I've had 2 Peugeots, & 4 Citroens. Comfortable & reliable.
Airbus - Not 100% French. Wings made in Wales, RR engines in England, Parts made in Germany, Spain, Italy etc. Though planes are assembled in France.
Air Industry wont die, just change. Middle East airlines such as Emirates, Etihad etc will prosper. Plenty money & plenty fuel. At least in the near future anyway.
French Railways - Agree, along with Germany & Japan, best there is.
Gasmon _________________ Oiyl be back !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Air France eyes move to railways - way to go
Hi JPL, I'm french too, and people really need to understand that beside or mavellous system described by Lorenzo, we are still very dependant on oil here in France.
We especially have ethnic problem and lot of violence associated with it. I'm afraid that the post peak oil will be translated as violence, violence and more violence.
Funny to see comments on this thread where shifting to railway from airway is considered as progress. Just like everything is fine.
Sorry, but there's something huge you missed : Air France moving RAILWAYS!!!
What about railway/truck and cars ? Moving horses?
What about democracy and peace? Moving totalitarism and war?
What about internet? Moving phones?
And so on
until industrialized civilization moving to cavern civilization.
And everyone will see that as the proof of perpetual progress!!
Joined: Mar 18, 2006 Posts: 1106 Location: Everywhere
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Air France eyes move to railways - way to go
Sys1 wrote:
Hi JPL, I'm french too, and people really need to understand that beside or mavellous system described by Lorenzo, we are still very dependant on oil here in France.
We especially have ethnic problem and lot of violence associated with it. I'm afraid that the post peak oil will be translated as violence, violence and more violence.
Funny to see comments on this thread where shifting to railway from airway is considered as progress. Just like everything is fine.
Sorry, but there's something huge you missed : Air France moving RAILWAYS!!!
What about railway/truck and cars ? Moving horses?
What about democracy and peace? Moving totalitarism and war?
What about internet? Moving phones?
And so on
until industrialized civilization moving to cavern civilization.
And everyone will see that as the proof of perpetual progress!!
Hi Sys1
Actually I'm British but I live in France (Normandie) because I love the place. But we're selling up & going back to the UK this year before the turds totally hit the extractor unit. Wrong colour passport, basically - also best to be on home turf.
I agree with you about the French dependency on oil, it's not solve-able without a lot of changes - probably very traumatic ones (sigh).
JP _________________ The three most beautiful things in the world -
a full-rigged ship, a woman with child and a full moon.
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 1:46 am Post subject: Re: Air France eyes move to railways - way to go
Byron100 wrote:
....
In the post-peak era....huge government programs and public works projects is the ONLY way to go. Any other way of doing things is doomed from the start. I just wish folks in the US would start getting a clue how capitalism's time has come and gone.
....
*delicate cough*
over my dead body.
I like to remind you that MOST Americans actually like free market capitalism. Their biggest complaint is we're not using the "free market" enough.
As for your "wish" it will never happen. America is NOT Europe and will never be and as an American with conservative leanings it makes me happy to mention this.
Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: Air France eyes move to railways - way to go
Sys1 wrote:
Funny to see comments on this thread where shifting to railway from airway is considered as progress.
People probably said this when tail fins went away on cars as well. Tell me: do you miss them now?
Short-haul airlines were always destined to be a dead end when cheap oil went away. Compared to rail, it is a rather decadent and superfluous way to move people 200 miles at a time. Now the time has come to adjust, and if 'regression' involves running aluminum tubes on the ground at 200 mph between city centers, I find it hard to believe anyone would have a serious complaint. _________________ "It's called the American Dream because you'd have to be asleep to believe it."
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