Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 11:17 pm Post subject: Algae oil not viable untill oil hits 800$ per barrel of oil
The last few months we heared a lot of promises about "algae oil" will save the day, and we can continue our happy normal lifes without changin our way of life.
ofcourse if you know how long it took for the sun and the earth to make oil, you probably know this is too good to be true.
Here are the facts :
Summary
GreenFuel Technologies (www.greenfuelonline.com/) has recently generated positive publicity for their technology, which converts CO2-containing emissions from power plants into valuable biofuels using proprietary algal photobioreactors (PBRs).
This report shows that GreenFuel’s method will not be economically feasible, even if the company achieves spectacular progress in development of its technology. Fundamental thermodynamic constrains make it impossible for such approach to be commercially viable for fuel prices below $800/bbl, even if flawless technological implementation is assumed. Since other technologies offer alternative options at substantially lower costs, GreenFuel’s approach cannot be expected to have a significant place in our future energy supply or carbon mitigation strategy.
Some folks are doing research into alternatives to soybeans such as biodiesel producing pools of algae. As with every other project that promises to "replace all petroleum fuels," this project has yet to produce a single drop of commercially available fuel. This hasn't prevented many of its most vocal proponents from insisting that algae grown biodiesel will solve our energy problems. The same is true for other, equally ambitious plans such as using recycled farm waste, switchgrass, etc. These projects all look great on paper or in the laboratory. Some of them may even end up providing a small amount of commercially available energy at some undetermined point in the future. However, in the context of our colossal demand for petroleum and the small amount of time we have remaining before the peak, these projects can't be expected to be more than a "drop in the bucket."
--------------
It took me a while too find proof that it's just another exgagerated story like ethanol and thermal depolymerization.
Ofcourse it will help a lot but once again it will NOT replace oil like so many people believe now.
You peakoil optimists really should consider to move to the other side cause the peakoil pessimists are mostly of the time right
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 1:58 am Post subject: Re: Algae oil not viable untill oil hits 800$ per barrel of
Mettezz neither algae nor corn juice, biodiesel or cellulosic ethanol will save the day. Each of these real or make believe fuels requires heavy agriculture equipment and diesel fuel. Beaucoup energy to plow and cultivate a field, harvest crops, grind, hydrolyze starches, dry and separate slushes. Ferment, clarify, strain and drain the fuel.
It take more energy than is contained in the resulting fuel. Bad bad eroei. _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 2:28 am Post subject: Re: Algae oil not viable untill oil hits 800$ per barrel of
ohanian wrote:
I say that Algae oil is viable in just under 12 years.
Great. Maybe we'll be able to avoid starvation by eating it. _________________ "So while you sit and whistle Dixie with your money and your power.
I can hear the flowers a-growin in the rubble of the towers.
I hear leaders quit their lying
I hear babies quit their crying.
I hear soldiers quit their dying, one and all." - OCMS
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 5:12 am Post subject: Re: Algae oil not viable untill oil hits 800$ per barrel of
Oil from algae was probably the only biofuel to hold any promise. If it won't be viable until oil hits $800.00 then I guess it is official ... biofuels won't save us.
Joined: Apr 06, 2006 Posts: 3330 Location: 3 miles NW of Champoeg, Republic of Cascadia
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Algae oil not viable untill oil hits 800$ per barrel of
I just tell people to try and imagine a field of any crop producing a million+ barrels of oil a day. Might work if we filled our tanks with nematodes...
Mettezz - JurisDoctorOfDoom = Matt Savinar
_________________ Cogito, ergo non satis bibivi
I will not abide another toe.
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Algae oil not viable untill oil hits 800$ per barrel of
TheDude wrote:
I just tell people to try and imagine a field of any crop producing a million+ barrels of oil a day. Might work if we filled our tanks with nematodes...
Mettezz - JurisDoctorOfDoom = Matt Savinar
ah ok didn't know that
I have too add also btw that the report is from late 2007
and the green fuel technologies company believes that they can make one gallon of algae oil to 5$ instead of 20$
and their real omtimistic view is 2$ a gallon
So if they find some miracle to make it viable to half their costs to 400$ per barrel of oil and then find another miracle too half that by 200$ per barrel of oil they just might get their.
Isn't this the nuclear fusion of biofuels?
promising that it will work so they will invest in it?
also they have to build it nexto a coal plant or oil plant to get the co2 from it.
this is what green fuel says :
What about claims that algae production will never be economical?
GreenFuel’s extensive economic analyses and cost estimates show that algae can be grown economically as a commercial product. Many estimates claiming that algae are not commercially viable use outdated economics for product values that are no longer valid, or assume use of initial generations of experimental technology that have since been upgraded.
I reall want to see the date that they have upgraded i searched on google and didn't found any data of 2008 only late 2007 that it's only viable at 800$ per barrel of oil economy
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 2:00 pm Post subject: Re: Algae oil not viable untill oil hits 800$ per barrel of
Mettezz I will give you a intro. summary of the problems with algae biofuels. After this you will need to search this forum for the dozens of threads and hundreds of comments on the subject. I will be later.
First background. Algae (hundreds of genus, thousands of different species ) are simple single celled organisms with very primitive structure. Unlike higher animals (like us) each species only lives briefly in single ideal ecosystems. In the wild they bloom briefly, often explosively, in the summer and then die.
They are dependent during that bloom for perfect ph, salinity, temperature, oxygen levels etc. They are prey to other microrganisms and higher animals.
The National Renewable Energy Lab of the US government studied them for 20 years and determined that:
1) outdoor cultures can not be maintained reliably. Dust falls in the pond. They die. It gets to cloudy. They die. To hot. To cold. And especially wild varieties and yeast prey on them.
2) Indoor cultures require expensive filtration for ph, salinity, etc. and especially to remove the waste products of the culture.
3) The varieties that were engineered to produce maximum economic levels of lipids did not breed at a reasonable level. The two breeding strategies were never compatible. NREL gave up completey on this project.
4) All new projects are scams. Sorry. I must go now and will respond later to questions _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: Algae oil not viable untill oil hits 800$ per barrel of
Thanks Pstarr for your information.
I didn't trust algae fuel in the first place.
I only recently heared about algae fuel because it seems it's becoming te new hype and all.
and i really hate it when i only hear one side of the story saying that this will be the future and that all our problems are solved without decent information about the disadvantages.
I only found 3 sites where they gave decent information about the disadvantages of it.
And the reason why i didn't found anything decent about it is cause it still in it's testing stage lol.
how can someone be so optimistic like greenfuel company about something that hasn't even been tested decently yet?
and there are even compagnies like klm air compagny that are saying they are planning to fly with algae fuel in about 2 year !
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Algae oil not viable untill oil hits 800$ per barrel of
God, every energy subject on this stupid site has no other message but "We're doomed". Well that's fine for newbies, I guess. But I've been posting here since 2004 and that ubiquitous message has just gotten old.
Doesn't anyone ever get interested in the engineering aspects of an alternative energy like algae fuels? It seems like the filter always is: "Well, it doesn't show a ghost of a chance of replacing fossil fuels so my mind is snapping shut on the matter! And, goddamit, everybody else's mind better snap shut on this subject otherwise I'll bring out all the snarky, juvenile and groupthinkish artillery I can possibly muster!"
Well, sorry! Algae fuels ARE kind of interesting to an engineer and there is bound to be development in them. And there's no farking reason why engineers these days have to stick with what Nature provided. Scientists now are on the bleeding edge of creating synthetic life forms from raw chemical stocks. Scientists will be using algae as a template for their own creations which will be engineered specifically for producing oils. What scientists create might eventually bear little resemblance to the pond scum we all know and love so dearly. And these tiny created photosynthetic factories will be developed to thrive and produce in totally artificial environments also, with totally artificial chemical feedstocks.
But unfortunately, we can't have a discussion of the engineering possibilities that algae fuels hold because of the imbecilic, knee-jerk, groupthink, stultifying refusal of the Doomers on the board who can't tolerate any thought train which depart from the Olduvai Gorge scenario.
Back at the end of WWI, the Japanese had been radically starved for fuel. They had resorted to trying to fly their Zeros on pine oil. Every damn pine tree on the islands of Japan had been ripped from the ground in service to the desperate war effort. Their machines could barely run on the filthy, sticky stuff.
But the lesson that this tells is that people will try anything and everything in order to satisfy pressing and dire needs. And it's clear that the world, as a whole, will have to throw the kitchen sink at the energy problem. It's human nature! Nothing will stop it! And so, engineering efforts will not ignore the difficult problems that present themselves - such as in developing algae fuels.
Algae fuels do not immediately broadcast that they are a miraculous replacement for fossil fuels, No one expects them to be a total replacement. But nothing has been proven yet; no one knows exactly what the potential is and so research will continue. Naysayers will not have a single iota of influence on whether or not development will continue in this line - OF COURSE IT WILL CONTINUE!
And while it is continuing, it might be interesting to pay attention to developments.
Or is is really more interesting to constantly rave that the sky is falling too fast and there is nothing that can be done about it and so it is ridiculous to even be interested in alternative energies or any of the scientific or engineering aspects because we're all doomed and that's all there is to it?
Posted: Sun May 25, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Algae oil not viable untill oil hits 800$ per barrel of
Schadenfreude this is not a doom discussion.
I just wanted to know if Algae oil is the great alternative for oil.
It's very promising without a doubt but it's still only a promise.
The facts clearly say that it's not viable untill oil hits 800$ per barrel of oil.
If you have data that shows me it's wrong i'm very happy to see it cause i didn't found it.
I'm not a doomer and i don't believe the olduvai theory yet.
Maybe when oil hits 200$ i might start believing it lol but not now.
I just wanna hear facts if this is truely that great what they say.
if compagnies say that you can provide all the oil that the U.S.A needs with 1/10 of the area of Texas thanks to Algae oil that's great and if it does i'm happy we found it.
But for now it only stands on paper.
And I read this on the oil drum site about algae oil
I believe in the potential of alternatives, and we need to find a balance between oil, bio oil, solar, wind, nuclear power, nuclear fusion if it will ever work, thermal, and everything else i didn't mentionend.
And about your claim about synthetic biology this is a quote
Recalling the Miller/Urey experiment
Synthetic biology’s objective, to "create life," harks back to the laboratory experiment of Stanley L. Miller and Harold C. Urey in 1953 at the University of Chicago. Miller and Urey attempted to create the building blocks of life, amino acids, from a mixture of gases (ammonia, methane, hydrogen) and water, stimulated by an electric current that simulated atmospheric lightning, all believed to be common on the early earth. Their experiment, to re-create life’s building blocks from a "primordial soup," was a flop and is often considered scientific mythology, since even if organic compounds could be created and real life forms emanate, a high methane-ammonia environment would have killed any living matter. [Science July 31, 130: 245–512, 1959] Nonetheless, the University of Chicago celebrated the 50th anniversary of the Miller/Urey experiment in 2003. Oddly, modern biology has never repeated the Miller/Urey experiment to verify its conclusions.
So please show me proof that they can create or re-create life?
I only care about facts so i know what to expect of something.
and I get pretty angry when the news is only giving one side of the story
Joined: Jun 28, 2005 Posts: 514 Location: The Netherlands
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 4:40 am Post subject: Re: Algae oil not viable untill oil hits 800$ per barrel of
Schadenfreude wrote:
God, every energy subject on this stupid site has no other
Back at the end of WWI, the Japanese had been radically starved for fuel. They had resorted to trying to fly their Zeros on pine oil. Every damn pine tree on the islands of Japan had been ripped from the ground in service to the desperate war effort. Their machines could barely run on the filthy, sticky stuff.
But the lesson that this tells is that people will try anything and everything in order to satisfy pressing and dire needs. And it's clear that the world, as a whole, will have to throw the kitchen sink at the energy problem. It's human nature! Nothing will stop it!
Indeed.
Though on the other hand: no. In the end mankind will be stopped by its own achievements, its relentlessly cutting down 'every damn pine tree on the island' for its own needs.
It might be interesting for you to read Michael Boutler's Extinction; Evolution and the End of Man.
Boulter is a leading paleobiologist, studying Fossil Record 2, the largest database of information on extinct animals and plants.
His book shows us that ever since the rise of mankind some 30.000 years ago the natural extinction rate of mammals has been speeded by about 900 million years.
Extinction rates, by the way, follow nice bell shaped curves, just like oil.
Anyway, Boulter concludes that mammals in general are under threat of extinction within a very short period of time. Remember, humans are mammals too.
So I don't think we should do anything in our power to keep the self same machine running in the old self same way.
The algae party goers seem to have a hard time acknowledging all of this. _________________ The greatest shortcoming of the human race is our inability to understand the exponential function.
Joined: Nov 06, 2007 Posts: 675 Location: Illinois
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Algae oil not viable untill oil hits 800$ per barrel of
Mettezz wrote:
So please show me proof that they can create or re-create life?
How do you define life? A virus is sort of on the edge of life, unable to reproduce without a host cell. Scientists created a synthetic virus back in 2003:
Scientists create artificial virus
A more impressive achievement would be to create an actual living cell. This has not happened yet, but scientists are working on it. Last year they created an artificial cell membrane:
ProtoCell
And genome:
Synthetic Genome _________________ The oil barrel is half-full.
Posted: Tue May 27, 2008 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Algae oil not viable untill oil hits 800$ per barrel of
We've only ever bioengineered two agriculture products of (very very limited) value. Bt grains and herbicide resistant soybeans have been foisted on the public but there are very serious questions about their agroeconomic value, and danger to the ecosystem, and to you. The strawberry/flounder (freeze protected) fruit and late-ripening tomatos were the last commerical attempt at new products and they failed miserably.
Schadenfreude wrote:
But unfortunately, we can't have a discussion of the engineering possibilities that algae fuels hold because of the imbecilic, knee-jerk, groupthink, stultifying refusal of the Doomers on the board who can't tolerate any thought train which depart from the Olduvai Gorge scenario.
Now do not screw with me, or I will send down crop circles on your lawn and ruin your real estate market share. Do you understand?
No really. I am not a doomer but rather an agriculture scientist and I understand that no algae has ever been created that can do what you want it to do. And will not. Do you homework.
Schadenfreude wrote:
Back at the end of WWI, the Japanese had been radically starved for fuel. They had resorted to trying to fly their Zeros on pine oil. Every damn pine tree on the islands of Japan had been ripped from the ground in service to the desperate war effort. Their machines could barely run on the filthy, sticky stuff.
But the lesson that this tells is that people will try anything and everything in order to satisfy pressing and dire needs. And it's clear that the world, as a whole, will have to throw the kitchen sink at the energy problem. It's human nature! Nothing will stop it! And so, engineering efforts will not ignore the difficult problems that present themselves - such as in developing algae fuels.
didn't you preface this mini rant with some story about the Japanese failing miserably in spite of their best intentions?
Schadenfreude wrote:
Algae fuels do not immediately broadcast that they are a miraculous replacement for fossil fuels, No one expects them to be a total replacement. But nothing has been proven yet; no one knows exactly what the potential is and so research will continue. Naysayers will not have a single iota of influence on whether or not development will continue in this line - OF COURSE IT WILL CONTINUE!
Did you read any part of what I wrote above. 20 years of national research and prototyping and . . . and the stuff is still and will forever remain . . . pond scum.
Schadenfreude wrote:
And while it is continuing, it might be interesting to pay attention to developments.
There have not been any.
Schadenfreude wrote:
Or is is really more interesting to constantly rave that the sky is falling too fast and there is nothing that can be done about it and so it is ridiculous to even be interested in alternative energies or any of the scientific or engineering aspects because we're all doomed and that's all there is to it?
If that's the only relevant message around here, why do we call it a "Discussion Board"?
You have no idea what you are talking about. This is not the WTC forum. Stick to you area of expertise. _________________ ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap
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ree rah rip ram. sunofabitch godamn. hidey didey christ almighty. rah rah crap 
Might work if we filled our tanks with nematodes...
