HW: Look, I'll put it very simply: what they sell us as realpolitik these days is a complete illusion, because it doesn't address any the problems of the future – climate change, dwindling resources, mounting water and food deficits, the escalating global conflict potential, the exploitation of our children's future. If you look at it this way, it's the realpoliticians who seem who have a fondness for crises. Crises also provide an excellent opportunity to score points for tireless crisis management. This is good for distracting from the fact that there is nothing on the political agenda.

What do you say to people who say that as a successful person, it's easy for you to talk about making fundamental changes?

CL: I'd say that they are right to some extent. But we are not pretending to know all the answers, we are being very open about when we hit up against our own limits, when we fall back on old habits, or when we are simply at a loss.

Can you give me an example?

HW: Like taking "the odd" plane, every now and then, or "the odd" cab ride. But then I think it would be completely misguided to tell myself and everyone else to become climate monks overnight and to do penance for sinning. Firstly, if you live in a modern society, you have to meet the demands of so many different roles. In other words life is contradictory. Then you have to appreciate that the outside world is not only full of material infrastructures like streets and airports, but that these material infrastructures have also influenced our mental infrastructures. Oiloholic societies, by which I mean societies that are shaped by oil, create certain ways of thinking and it's really not very easy to think outside the box. Just try and imagine a world without oil. I recently ran though in my mind how much mopeds and cars have shaped my life, what an emotional role they have played, how these machines have inscribed themselves into my mental infrastructure. After thinking about all this for a while, I realised that I myself am the problem that has to be solved if we want to bring about successful cultural change.