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John Michael Greer: Systems That Suck Less

Last week’s post on political economy attracted plenty of disagreement. Now of course this came as no surprise, and it was also not exactly surprising that most of the disagreement took the shape of strident claims that I’d used the wrong definition of socialism. That’s actually worth addressing here, because it will help clear the ground for this week’s discussion.

The definition I used, for those who weren’t here last week, is that socialism is the system of political economy in which the means of production are owned by the national government. Is that the only possible definition of socialism, or the only definition that’s ever been used? Of course not. The meanings of words are not handed down from on high by God or somebody; the meanings of words are always contested among competing points of view, and when a word has become as loaded with raw emotions as the word “socialism” has, you can bet that every one of the definitions you’ll be offered is slanted in one direction or another.

That’s just as true of the definition I’ve offered, of course, as it is of any other. I want to talk about who owns the means of production in society, since this is arguably the most important issue in political economy, and it so happens that socialism, capitalism, and many other systems can be defined quite neatly in this way. A century ago, when it was still acceptable to talk about systems of political economy other than capitalism and socialism, the definition I’ve proposed was one of the most common. You don’t hear it very often now, and there’s a reason for that.

Since 1945 the conventional wisdom across most of the world has insisted that there are two and only two possible systems of political economy: socialism on the one hand, capitalism on the other. That’s very convenient for socialists and capitalists, since it allows both sides to contrast an idealized and highly sentimental picture of the system they favor with the real and disastrous failings of the one they don’t, and insist that since the two systems are the only available options, you’d better choose theirs. This allows both sides to ignore the fact that the system they prefer is just as bad as the one they hate.

Let us please be real. In theory, socialism is a wonderful system in which the workers own the means of production, and people contribute what they can and receive what they need. In practice, as seen in actual socialist societies? It sucks. Get past the rhetoric, and what happens is that the workers’ ownership of the means of production becomes a convenient fiction; an inner circle of politicians controls the means of production, and uses it to advance its own interests rather than that of the workers. Centralized bureaucracy becomes the order of the day, fossilization follows, and you end up with the familiar sclerosis of the mature socialist economy, guided by hopelessly inefficient policies mandated by clueless central planners, and carried out grudgingly by workers who know that they have nothing to gain by doing more than the minimum. Eventually this leads to the collapse of the system and its replacement by some other system of political economy.

In theory, equally, capitalism is a wonderful system in which anyone willing to work hard can get ahead, and the invisible hand of the market inevitably generates the best possible state of affairs for everyone. In practice, as seen in actual capitalist societies? It sucks. Get past the rhetoric, and what happens is that social mobility becomes a convenient fiction; an inner circle of plutocrats controls the means of production, and uses economic power backed by political corruption to choke the free market and stomp potential competitors. Monopoly and oligopoly become the order of the day, wealth concentrates at the top of the pyramid, and you end up with the familiar sclerosis of the mature capitalist society, in which the workers who actually make the goods and provide the services can’t afford to buy them, resulting in catastrophic booms and busts, soaring unemployment, and the rise of a violent and impoverished underclass. Eventually this leads to the collapse of the system and its replacement by some other system of political economy.

Yes, this is as true of capitalism as it is of socialism. Unrestricted capitalism has already collapsed once—the aftermath of the Great Depression saw it replaced by social democracy, socialism, or fascism over all of the industrial world—and we didn’t begin to return to it again until the Reagan-Thatcher counterrevolution of the 1980s. Now that we’ve gotten back to something fairly close to unrestricted capitalism, we’ve got all the same spiraling dysfunctions that brought things crashing down in the 1930s. The possibility that it could end the same way, with a similar quota of armbands and jackboots, is rather hard to dismiss out of hand just at the moment.

At the same time, the notion that we can fix the current mess by exchanging capitalism for socialism doesn’t bear close examination. We know how socialism works out, just as we know how capitalism works out. As previously noted, both of them suck. The obvious solution—unthinkable these days, oh, granted, but obvious—is to look for other options.

The best way to do this, it seems to me, is to pay attention to the core similarity between capitalism and socialism. Both systems reliably end up dominated by massive bureaucracies—corporate bureaucracies in the former case, government bureaucracies in the latter—and the bureaucracies do so stunningly bad a job of getting people the goods and services they need that it becomes necessary to paper over the gaps with propaganda and police violence. There’s a reason for the similarity, and it’s one that people who studied political economy a century and more ago had no trouble at all recognizing: in capitalism and socialism alike, control of the means of production is concentrated in too few hands.

Promoters of socialist systems like to pretend that if the means of production are owned by the government, they’re really owned by the workers, but I trust none of my readers are simple-minded enough to fall for that bait-and-switch tactic. In the same way, promoters of capitalist systems like to pretend that if the means of production are owned by stockholders, a little old lady who has five shares of Microsoft has just as much effective ownership as Bill Gates; here again, the old bait-and-switch tactic gets a hefty workout. In socialist systems, control of the means of production is kept within a small circle of upper-level bureaucrats; in capitalist systems, control of the means of production is kept within a small circle of upper-level plutocrats.

That’s not something either socialists or capitalists like to talk about, in turn, because once you start looking at who owns the means of production, it really doesn’t make sense to insist that the only choice your society has is either to hand them over to a small coterie of bureaucrats, or to hand them over to an equally small coterie of plutocrats. Most people, considering that choice, will quite sensibly ask why some other arrangement is out of the question—and that is not a question either socialists or capitalists want to answer, or even to hear.

Here again, there’s good reason for that. In a modern industrial society, after all, the people who control most of the wealth are also the people who exercise disproportionate influence over the political system. The choice between capitalism and socialism thus amounts to asking whether you want the means of production in the hands of corporate bureaucracies owned by the elite class, or political bureaucracies controlled by the elite class. “Meet the new boss,” sang the Who, “same as the old boss.” There are other options, and they begin with getting the means of production into many more hands.

What happens if we ask ourselves how control over the means of production can be spread more widely? Why, then we would end up revisiting the lively world of alternative systems of political economy that existed before 1945, when the US and the Soviet Union between them squeezed out every alternative to social democracy on the one hand and socialism on the other, and kept on squeezing. We would find that the question of the ownership and control of the means of production was the focus of vigorous and thoughtful discussion from the second half of the nineteenth century straight through the first half of the twentieth. There were quite a few systems proposed during that time, but those that didn’t gravitate either toward capitalism or toward socialism generally embraced one form or another of syndicalism.

Syndicalism? That’s the form of political economy in which each business enterprise is owned and run by its own employees.

Before we go on, I’d like to encourage my readers to stop, reread that definition, and remember that we’re talking about the ownership and control of the means of production. It’s possible to approach political economy from other directions, sure, and there’s a point to those discussions as well, but—ahem—not when those discussions are used to try to stonewall discussion of who gets to own and run the means of production. We can talk about those other things later.

Okay, with that settled, let’s talk about the most important feature of syndicalism: it’s already been tried, and it works. Right now there’s a very large number of employee-owned enterprises in the United States, and an even larger number elsewhere in the industrial world. They are by and large just as successful as companies owned by stockholders who aren’t employees. There are several different ways to set up a worker-owned enterprise—the two most common are the worker-owned cooperative, on the one hand, and the closely held corporation whose stock can only be owned by employees, on the other—and they’ve been around long enough to have had the bugs worked out. Thus we’re not talking about a pie-in-the-sky system, we’re talking about something with a long and relatively successful track record. You’ve probably shopped at worker-owned enterprises, dear reader; I certainly have.

In a very real sense, syndicalism is what happens when you take the basic unit of a market economy—the individual sole proprietor with no employees, who sells the product of his or her labor directly to customers—and maintain the same relationship with the means of production at a larger scale. In a capitalist society, only the owners of capital own the means of production: the mass of the population, not being rich enough to be able to invest in ownership of the means of production, are excluded from any economic activity other than selling their labor at whatever wages employers want to pay, and buying products at whatever price companies want to charge. In a socialist economy, no individual owns the means of production: everyone is an employee of the state, and the bureaucrats who draft the latest Five-Year Plan in blissful ignorance of shop-floor realities have no more of a personal stake in how things turn out than the working stiffs on the shop floor who have to carry out the dictates of the plan despite its obvious cluelessness.

In a syndicalist society, by contrast, every employee is an owner. Every employee benefits when the business prospers and suffers when the business takes a loss. Every employee has some influence over the management of the business—the usual approach is to have employees elect a board of directors, which then hires and fires the management personnel. Every employee thus has a personal stake in the business—and every business is owned and run by people who have a personal stake in its success. That’s one of the reasons syndicalism works well.

Let’s deal with some of the usual questions at this point. Do sole proprietorships exist in a syndicalist system? Of course. An individual who goes into business for himself or herself is the simplest form of syndicalist economic organization:  a business wholly owned and operated by its one employee. A family business—the sort of thing where Mom and Dad own the business and their kids work there—is also a syndicalist business in miniature. It’s when things get larger than that, and there are employees other than the individual proprietor or the members of a family, that the classic forms of syndicalist ownership come into play.

Wouldn’t syndicalism mean that new employees coming in could simply take over the business and throw the founder out on his or her ear? Not at all, because the way you organize a business in a syndicalist society prevents that. Let’s say you’ve founded a blivet-making business, just you and your blivet press, and you do well enough that you need a second employee. You hire someone, and part of the terms of hire are that she gets a share in the business for each year of employment. The business is worth thirty thousand dollars at the time of hire, we’ll say, so she gets, as part of her compensation package, one share with a five hundred dollar face value each year. This cannot be sold or transferred; it remains with her only as long as she remains an employee of the company; but it gives her voting rights in the shareholders meeting and a cut of the annual dividend. A year after she’s hired, she has one vote in the shareholder’s meeting and you’ve got fifty-nine, so she’s not going to be throwing you out any time soon.

By the time she’s put in thirty years, she owns half the original value of the company, but of course by then you’ve retired, and your shares are the basis of your pension. (Your shares revert to the company when you retire, remember—they can only be owned by employees—but your pension makes up for the income.) In the meantime, as the business grows and you bring in more employees, they also start earning shares on the same basis. A hundred years down the road the business you founded is a thriving blivet firm with three hundred fifty employees, all of whom are part owners, and each new employee starts out in the same place as your first hire, working for a year and getting that first share. Again, this was all worked out a long time ago.

Can you fire someone in a syndicalist company? Of course, if they’re not doing their job, or do something that deserves termination. That’s why the employees elect a board of directors, and the board hires management: so there’s somebody who’s not on the shop floor who can take responsibility for hiring and firing, and the other tasks management has to do. A management team that tries to offshore jobs to Third World sweatshops is going to be out on its ear in a hurry, of course, because the board of directors has to worry about being thrown out by vote of the employees; in the same way, any board of directors that tried to pay a management team the kind of absurdly kleptocratic salary packages that management thinks it deserves in today’s America had better empty its desk and pack its bags in advance. When every employee has a personal stake in the success of the enterprise, though, firing somebody who’s not pulling their weight, or is a problem in some other way, is rarely a controversial issue.

Now, the big one: could such a thing actually happen? Of course it could, for the same reason that unrestricted capitalism gave way to social democracy, socialism, and fascism across the industrial world in the 1930s. Capitalism, as we discussed last week, has a self-destruct button wired into it:  as the distribution of wealth becomes more and more imbalanced, the production of goods and services stops being profitable, speculative booms and busts replace investment in productive activity, and sooner or later the economy hits a crash devastating enough that the voters turn to somebody who promises to replace unrestricted capitalism with something else. We’re arguably not that many crises away from such a moment here in America right now.

That’s why it’s time to start talking again about the alternatives to capitalism and socialism. Since, as already noted, both of them suck, and the third alternative most often tried back in the 1930s—fascism—sucks even more, other options are worth considering.

It’s worth noting that classic social democracy is also an option. That’s the system we had in the United States from 1932 to 1980—a period, please note, when this country achieved the highest standard of living and the widest distribution of wealth and income in its history. As mentioned in last week’s post, social democracy balances the power of government against the power of the corporations. It’s an unsteady balance, and eventually breaks down when the wealthy forget that limiting the excesses of the capitalist system is the one thing that keeps them from being strung up from lampposts, but during the time that it works, it sucks less than either of the two alternatives that get all the air time these days.

It’s also worth noting that syndicalism comes in many flavors. Those of my readers who happen to be Roman Catholics will want to check out distributism, the specifically Catholic version of syndicalism, which draws its basic principles from encyclicals issued by Leo XIII and Pius IX in the nineteenth century, and was worked out in some detail by G.K. Chesterton in the early twentieth. Those who aren’t Roman Catholics, or sympathetic to Catholic moral doctrines, will probably not find it to their tastes, because it incorporates quite a bit of conservative Catholic morality; I mention it here partly because I have quite a few readers who are either Catholic or comfortable with Catholic moral thought, and partly as a reminder that syndicalism isn’t necessarily associated with the political left—you’d have a hard time convincing anyone who knows the first thing about Pius IX or G.K. Chesterton that either man was a leftist.

There are other versions, ranging from anarchosyndicalism on the extreme left to national syndicalism on the extreme right. The version I tend to favor, as previously noted, is democratic syndicalism: the system of political economy that combines a syndicalist economy with a politics based on constitutional representative democracy. I also favor a firm distinction between public utilities, which are best owned and operated by local governments, and private businesses, which are best owned and operated by the people who work for them; readers of my book Retrotopia already know that I consider banking to be a public utility rather than a private business, but that’s a matter for another post.

Is what I’ve just very roughly sketched out a perfect system? Of course not. In the real world, there are no perfect systems.  Every possible system of political economy will inevitably turn out to have glaring flaws, for the simple reason that human beings have glaring flaws. The best we can hope to achieve is a system that sucks less than the ones that have been tried so far.

I think that’s potentially within reach, even given the many other pressures on the United States and industrial society in general as we lurch through the opening phases of the Long Descent. If such a thing is going to be possible, though, the first step is to break out of the mental rut that insists that the only choice we’ve got is between capitalism and socialism, two systems that both unquestionably suck. Attention to the ownership of the means of production is one tolerably effective way to leave that rut and start exploring the vast and interesting spaces outside it.

Ecosophia by John Michael Greer



330 Comments on "John Michael Greer: Systems That Suck Less"

  1. GregT on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 10:47 pm 

    What reason would anybody have to lie about humidity levels in Missouri?

  2. fmr-paultard on Thu, 28th Dec 2017 11:05 pm 

    guys, supertards (pbut) are losing in AF and this is not good, not good at all. It seems a legitimate and effective training approach is killing one’s own. This is the Islam approach.

    https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks/attacks.aspx?Yr=Last30

  3. Go Speed Racer on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:38 am 

    203 comments
    isn’t that setting a record?

  4. GregT on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:41 am 

    Two hundred and four.

  5. Cloggie on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 3:31 am 

    Clog,

    Your two croutons short of a salad.

    As per usual you forget/omit the apostrophe in your your, but he is funny alright, boat. Thanks, nice addition to my repertoire of insults.

  6. Davy on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 5:46 am 

    “And some want to light the fuse. I prefer to be in the bleachers(Ps), not in the game(US).”

    Yea, in the bleachers with 53MIL on the smalish island of Luzon in the crosshairs of most of the worst of possible natural disasters. Sure mad kat, you will be watching your back not the game.

  7. Davy on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 5:50 am 

    “BTW: Davy. The average humidity in the Ps (70%) is only 2% higher than in the state where I lived, PA, and similar to the average in Missouri(69%).”

    Not humid now. Pretty damn dry here these days and not always hot and humid with tropical disease like mad kat land. mad kat loves the averages.

  8. Davy on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 5:53 am 

    “Like Greg, I stopped watching TV about 20 years ago. I too recognized the main tool for brainwashing.”

    LMAO, if you have to worry about brainwashing from watching TV you are one sorry puppy. Come on mad kat, show your intellectual strength. Do you have hair on your balls yet after 75 years. You remind me of the person in those clean rooms that can’t venture out in the real world because their immune system is compromised.

  9. Davy on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 5:59 am 

    “Americans, do you know what you are eating?”

    The worst pollution in the world is in Asia. The food in Asia is full of a variety of contaminants. I refuse to eat food from China. I do buy green tea from China and Japan. Our food watch dogs may be lacking but at least we have them.

  10. Makati1 on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 8:09 am 

    “Introducing the DF-17: China’s Newly Tested Ballistic Missile Armed With a Hypersonic Glide Vehicle. The DF-17 is the first hypersonic glide vehicle-equipped missile intended for operational deployment ever tested.”

    https://thediplomat.com/2017/12/introducing-the-df-17-chinas-newly-tested-ballistic-missile-armed-with-a-hypersonic-glide-vehicle/

    One of China’s carrier killers. The US has no defense.

  11. MASTERMIND on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 8:29 am 

    Madkat

    Why don’t you ever vet your sources? I have some magic beans i would love to sell you..LOL China’s military is a joke..

  12. Makati1 on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 8:30 am 

    Davy your “food watch dogs” are useless. How many will die while they catch up? Thousands? A million? More?

    As for Asian food, interesting enough, it is the same as Americans eat. Read the labels. I do.

    High fructose corn syrup (GMO corn)
    Textured vegetable protein (GMO soy)
    Modified corn starch (GMO corn)
    Soybean oil (GMO soy)
    Ammonium chloride
    Sodium phosphate
    (pesticides are included at no cost.)

    All in a can of Chef Boyardee Ravioli. Not to mention 60% of the daily salt allowance of an adult.

    Not to mention that the US leads in hormone feeding to all of your meat sources. Ever wonder why girls are having puberty earlier with breasts and why boys are becoming feminine and maturing earlier? LOL

    Yep, American food is safe. Pesticides and genetic zombie corn and soy. Chemical additives in everything.

    BTW: China is NOT the Ps. Totally different place. Do you need a world map? Is Bermuda the US? No rebuttal with refs? LMAO

  13. Makati1 on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 8:44 am 

    Vet? You sound like your sock puppet MM.

    Definition of vet: veterinarian, veterinary M-W

    Even the US Navy knows it cannot get within 1,000 miles of China in a real war. The above missile is why. The US has nothing to counter it. Not even close. Then there is the older DF-21D.

    “The DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) has generated a tremendous amount of interest over the past five years. If it works, it poses a very serious threat to U.S. Navy (USN) carriers, as well as to the other advanced warships of the USN, of the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force, and others. …

    ASBMs have some obvious advantages over these other systems. Operating from land bases, the DF-21D can strike carrier groups at greater range (1000+ miles) than any cruise missile. US air defense systems were designed to defend against Soviet cruise missile attacks, but a ballistic missile attack is a different prospect entirely.”

    http://nationalinterest.org/feature/should-america-fear-chinas-carrier-killer-missile-11321

    This article is from 2014. Obviously the Chinese have a working system now. The US still has nothing to counter it. The new DF-17 is even better and faster. Denial does not make it disappear, Davy. Nor is putting your life in the hands of antique anti-missile systems the US has. Most were built over 50 years ago. Even the military does not know how many will actually work if needed.

  14. Davy on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 8:48 am 

    Mad Kat, you have none. Some is better than none

  15. Davy on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 8:51 am 

    DF-21 is old news Mad Kat. I am not worried about it. WTF, China sinks a carrier and the US will sink the Chinese navy. LMFAO at the old man. You have been surfing ZH this morning.

  16. Makati1 on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 8:59 am 

    Davy, Non-aggressive countries do not need missiles. The Ps will be just fine. Let the war be fought in the US/EU/ME. There is no reason for any war in the Ps again. China will just claim it and the US will not be able to stop it, or even get close. I have no problem with that. Most of the large corporations are already owned by the Chinese/Filipinos. The richest man in the Ps is one. https://www.forbes.com/philippines-billionaires/list/#tab:overall

    “Henry T. Sy Sr. (Chinese: born on October 25, 1924) is a Chinese-Filipino business magnate, investor, and philanthropist. He is involved in the industries of real estate, hospitality, banking, mining, education, and health care. He is responsible for the establishment of SM Malls, anchored by Shoemart Department Store and Supermarket. He is the founder of SM Prime Holdings, the holding corporation for all his business interests in his vast business empire. In 2015, Forbes Magazine listed him as the richest man in the Philippines, ahead of 11 other billionaires including John Gokongwei and Lucio Tan. WIKI

    In fact, 7 of the top 10 are of Chinese ancestry. All multi-billionaires. I see and speak to Chinese living in my condo tower everyday. I have no problem with the Chinese. LOL

  17. Makati1 on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 9:01 am 

    ‘Old news’ is still a carrier killer and the US still does not have any defense. You can deny all you want but realty will kill you.

    BTW: it is 11 PM here. Time zones, you know. LMAO

  18. Cloggie on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 9:25 am 

    One of China’s carrier killers. The US has no defense.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DF-21

    MACH-10
    Range 1770 km

    In the 21st century Navies are obsolete in a real war, a useless relic from the forties of the previous century. Even then they were threatened by Japanese single engine 150 mph harakiri fruit flies. The DF-21 goes 2 miles per SECOND.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze

    About 3,862 kamikaze pilots died during the war, and more than 7,000 naval personnel were killed by kamikaze attacks

    Even the US Navy knows it cannot get within 1,000 miles of China in a real war.

    The DF-21 can also be launched from a sub.

    The best way to mass transport troops are not on ships but on standard air liners, with soldiers having their guns between their legs, while buying tax free chocolates for their sweethearts at home.lol

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3wPQgMAll8

  19. Cloggie on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 10:08 am 

    Hahaha, latest provocative Trump-tweet:

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/946531657229701120

    In the East, it could be the COLDEST New Year’s Eve on record. Perhaps we could use a little bit of that good old Global Warming that our Country, but not other countries, was going to pay TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS to protect against. Bundle up!

    Father Christmas present for The Donald, ho ho ho ho!

    (ha ha ha ha!)

    #GlobalLukeWarming

  20. fmr-paultard on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 10:19 am 

    guys ((eurotard)) acting like muslim. ever since ww1 and trench warfare with chemical weapons, i thought we moved away from that.

    now he’s proposing using civilian resources for war fighting. he’s a genius ((eurotard)).

    rules of war doesn’t allow targetting civilians but those airliners will be targeted by our “fake” nukes if that’s being
    used.

    eurotard said we have fake nukes.

  21. Cloggie on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 10:59 am 

    eurotard said we have fake nukes.

    Never said that. Prove it with quote.

    And again… the real conflict will be in the US between the left (you and millimind) and the right.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBOTk00eMT4

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrm_JAnVKzI

    The conflict will be between those who want to protect their European-American identity and others who want racial communism and white America rammed into minority position.

    Europe will only intervene later on and come to the rescue, like in 1776, and split the warring factions.

    We’ll take the fashies. George Soros can have you and millimind. Everybody happy.

  22. MASTERMIND on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 11:45 am 

    US Government CBO Office Projects Less Than 2% Economic Growth Over The Next Ten Years
    https://www.cbo.gov/publication/52801

    The Great Depression 1929-1940 Economic Growth 1% GDP

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Depression
    http://www.history.com/topics/great-depression

  23. MASTERMIND on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 11:50 am 

    Clogg

    You are a total lose and need to find a girl and get laid and out of your moms basement. Be a man.not a bitch.

  24. Cloggie on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 11:54 am 

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM9_PrBoq9Q

    Largest capitalist money bag Blackrock ($6T) predicts “Golden Decade” for Europe.

    https://www.cnbc.com/video/2017/12/05/expect-european-renaissance-in-2018-amundi-says.html

    Expect ‘European Renaissance’ in 2018, Amundi says

    “Investors will turn back to Europe as it moves past many political uncertainties and growth outlook is positive, says Jean-Jacques Barberis of Amundi.”

    https://euobserver.com/tickers/139860

    “IMF sees strong growth in Europe”

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/dollar-declines-as-european-data-suggests-strong-growth-1511545959

    “Dollar Declines as European Data Suggests Strong Growth”

    Today euro at $1.20

    Europe (500 million) is going to overtake from the US (200 million Europeans).

  25. Cloggie on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 11:56 am 

    You are a total lose and need to find a girl and get laid and out of your moms basement.

    Millimind is going to be make himself useful in serving European interests by talking America into the ground and make peakoil a self-fulfilling prophecy by hindering America to adopt the only way out, namely renewable energy.

    Keep up the good work, millimind!

  26. MASTERMIND on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:05 pm 

    Clogg

    The Economist projects Germany’s GDP to be 1.8% next year. So much for strong economic growth..You idiot..The oil price is way to high for strong growth. And our declining net energy is too low…The US, Europe, Japan, will stay in their depression forever.Until the oil shortages come and the price spikes and they all collapse.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800914000615
    https://www.permaculture.org.au/files/Peak%20Oil_Study%20EN.pdf
    http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/280/1754/20122845
    http://sustainable.unimelb.edu.au/sites/default/files/docs/MSSI-ResearchPaper-4_Turner_2014.pdf
    http://www.feasta.org/2012/06/17/trade-off-financial-system-supply-chain-cross-contagion-a-study-in-global-systemic-collapse/

  27. Davy on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:07 pm 

    “Davy, Non-aggressive countries do not need missiles.”

    mad kat, what does that have to do with China’s DF-21, loon tune?

  28. GregT on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:08 pm 

    “US Government CBO Office Projects Less Than 2% Economic Growth Over The Next Ten Years”

    Which would equate to a doubling of the entire throughput of the US economy in ~35 years.

    Not, going, to, happen.

    Infinite exponential growth, in a finite environment, is a mathematical and physical impossibility.

  29. Davy on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:10 pm 

    “One of China’s carrier killers. The US has no defense.”

    Says the brilliant military mind that said there are 10MIL men under arms on the Korean peninsula. LMFAO.

    If China sinks a carrier it is likely the US will sink China’s navy. You can bet they can do it too.

  30. Cloggie on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:11 pm 

    The Washington-based International Monetary Fund on Monday said strong growth in Europe is having a positive spillover affect on the global economy. It noted that Europe’s overall real GDP growth is projected at 2.4 percent in 2017, faster than was expected in April 2017. “In the euro area, growth has not been this even across the member countries for nearly two decades,” it said.”

    https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/REO/EU/Issues/2017/11/06/Eurreo1117

    2018: 2.1% euro area.

    I would call that satisfactorily for a mature economy like the EU. Not “depression” as depressed fools like collapsenik millimind would like to have it.

  31. Davy on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:12 pm 

    “And again… the real conflict will be in the US between the left (you and millimind) and the right.”

    I would bank on Europe turning on itself in civil war before the US civil war, just wait until things get bad and we will see the true Euro spirit in action.

  32. Cloggie on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:12 pm 

    If China sinks a carrier it is likely the US will sink China’s navy. You can bet they can do it too.

    Both China and the US would end up without navies so cannot wage war against each other as it is a long swim across the ocean.

    What’s not to like.

  33. MASTERMIND on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:14 pm 

    Greg

    Also that number doesn’t include any recession so if that happens it will be lower. And 40% of the GDP is nothing more than stocks,bonds, currencies, so really its almost half that much. We are basically in a never ending depression headed for an economic collapse..I think it will be the oil shortages coming because that will cause the price of oil to double or triple. And our system will collapse.

  34. Davy on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:15 pm 

    “Largest capitalist money bag Blackrock ($6T) predicts “Golden Decade” for Europe.”

    There is more than enough real news to show Europe is not healthy economically. Tulip is using those financial sites that want to promote buying as his redundant reference de jure. This is something CNBC is notorious for. Europe is going down the tubes like the rest of the global economy. It is happening slowly but still happening.

  35. MASTERMIND on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:16 pm 

    Madkat

    China wont fuck with the US. We have Europe, Japan, Australia, South Korea, Israel, who all have our backs. And we have them surrounded. China spends like 1/5 as much money on their military every year as the US.

  36. GregT on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:16 pm 

    “If China sinks a carrier it is likely the US will sink China’s navy. You can bet they can do it too.”

    Which would escalate to MAD. So in reality, naval warfare is redundant in the 21st century. Only good for attacking other nations who do not have the capability if fighting back. A bullying tactic.

  37. Cloggie on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:17 pm 

    I would bank on Europe turning on itself in civil war before the US civil war, just wait until things get bad and we will see the true Euro spirit in action.

    Eh no. Our demographics are far better than yours. White America is already a minority in the age bracket [0..5]. Furthermore Europe has far more “identitarian resources” than “nation” of immigrants USA. We are responding with the rise of populists parties far sooner than the US did. In fact the US didn’t have a populist party until political gate crasher Trump turned the Reps into a populist party from the top. The Front National for instance exists for decades and gradually grew until they achieved 36% this Spring.

    When the going gets tough Europeans are basically fascists, Americans bolsheviks. Unfortunately for the Americans, Russia is now on our European side. And China doesn’t like you either. Tough luck. You are on your own.

  38. MASTERMIND on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:18 pm 

    Davy

    I know the Economist projected Europe’s strongest economic country Germany at 1.8% GDP next. And the IMF has been predicting growth will soar every year for the last ten. And it hasn’t yet..

  39. Davy on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:19 pm 

    Sure Tulip, the next big civil war will likely be “again” in Europe. You are just bias. We can’t trust what you say concerning Europe. It is like mad kat and Asia. You guys have proven you are not reliable balanced sources of news.

  40. Cloggie on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:20 pm 

    China wont fuck with the US. We have Europe

    Wrong.

    https://www.rt.com/news/387313-us-losing-leadership-eu-mogherini/

    https://www.ft.com/content/c16f7b13-2509-3811-8d9f-c0f5f023bb63

    The official position of the EU is “multipolar world”, not American Empire.

    WW3 will be between Anglosphere and Eurasia.

    Your time is up.

  41. MASTERMIND on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:22 pm 

    Hey Clogg

    How are you going to have a fascist uprising without OIL? LOL You always ignore that little problem…And your renewable s wont work either. There simply isn’t enough time Clog for any sort of uprising and changing of the guards…We are stuck with the shit economy and shit political leaders until we run out of oil and the who systems collapses.
    Then your great battle will be between your next door neighbors and friends and even family members ill turn on each other.

  42. Davy on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:22 pm 

    “WW3 will be between Anglosphere and Eurasia.”

    Says the desperate gaullist who is suffering neurosis.

  43. MASTERMIND on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:24 pm 

    CLogg

    Russia Today is your source? LOL I bet Putin has your email address in his troll farm..Either way there wont be a major world war because we are going to be running out of oil soon. And you cant fight a major world war without unlimited amounts of oil.

  44. Cloggie on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:27 pm 

    Sure Tulip, the next big civil war will likely be “again” in Europe.

    WW1 was Britain
    WW2 was US Jews

    Europe ruled the planet for 5 centuries as a set of competing European nations until Anglos and Soviets and their (((leaders))) intentionally destroyed Europe.

    Now America is “on top”, but not for long. And especially us in continental Europe have quite a few scores to settle with Washington before we are benevolently going to incorporate half of you. Revenge is underway. Rest assured. Now go start a war against China. We are right behind you with a big stick.

  45. Davy on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:41 pm 

    Europe caused WW1 and WW2, Tulip. You just can’t accept the truth. Your Eurotards can’t get along eventually. Everything is fine there until times get hard. History is proof. Your revisionist BS can’t hide that.

  46. Cloggie on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:45 pm 

    Europe caused WW1 and WW2, Tulip. You just can’t accept the truth.

    You just keep repeating that lie, but I have explained to you ad nauseum that it were Anglos, not continental Europeans. And you never found the arguments to counter me and instead ALWAYS chickened out of any meaningful discussion. Because you know at forehand you would lose that discussion.

  47. Cloggie on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:47 pm 

    You want that discussion now, Davy. In front of the entire forum?

    Come on Davy, do not be a coward.

    Let’s have it.

  48. Cloggie on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:49 pm 

    tic-toc-tic-toc

  49. Davy on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:51 pm 

    Tulip, I have history on my side and you have your personal failed revisionism on yours.

  50. Cloggie on Fri, 29th Dec 2017 12:52 pm 

    Tulip, I have history on my side and you have your personal failed revisionism on yours.

    Only the Allied Nuremberg lies.

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