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Zero Point Energy (merged)

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Zero Point Energy (merged)

Unread postby Choon » Mon 17 Jan 2005, 12:35:05

I was lurking around in AboveTopSecret.com, when this link came up in one of their forums...

http://www.evolvedtechnology.com/excalibur.pdf

This sounds way too good to be true since it said that it gets it's power from Zero Point Energy, but I was wondering if anyone can confirm its authenticity/fakery...
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Unread postby Cash » Mon 17 Jan 2005, 12:39:38

General rule in any energy .discussion: If it sounds too good to be true, it is. Zero point energy is a scam aimed at separating science-ignorant doofuses from their money.

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Unread postby nero » Mon 17 Jan 2005, 13:56:15

Well according to their website evidently they have the solution to the world's energy problems in a prototype the size of a diskman and they envision that one of the first applications will be in ELECTRIC SCOOTERS. I can't believe these scam artists are that stupid. They must be deliberately trying to be dumb to attract really dumb investors.

Gave me a chuckle though.
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Unread postby Kingcoal » Mon 17 Jan 2005, 14:06:43

Another ZPE link

In regards to rectifying thermal electrical noise, it is worth mentioning the U.S. Patent #3,890,161 by
Charles M. Brown that utilizes an array of nanometer-sized metal-metal diodes, capable of rectifying
frequencies up to a terahertz (1012 Hz). Brown notes that thermal agitation electrical noise (Johnson noise)
behaves like an external signal and can be sorted or preferentially conducted in one direction by a diode.
The Johnson noise in the diode is also generated at the junction itself and therefore, requires no minimum
signal to initiate the conduction in one direction. The thermal noise voltage is normally given by V2 =
4kBTRB where R is the device resistance and B is the bandwidth in Hertz. Brown’s diodes also require
no external power to operate, in contrast to the Yater diode invention. Brown also indicates that heat is
absorbed in the system, so that a cooling effect is noticed, because heat (thermal noise) energy energizes
the carriers in the first place and some of it is converted into DC electricity. In contrast, the well-known
Peltier effect is the closest electrothermal phenomenon similar to this but requires a significant current
flow into a junction of dissimilar metals in order to create a cooling effect (or heating). Brown suggests
that a million nickel-copper diodes formed in micropore membranes, with sufficient numbers in series
and parallel, can generate 10 microwatts. The large scale yield is estimated to be several watts per square
meter.
Taking these two inventions as a starting point for hardware, the transition to engineering quantum
Brownian nonthermal rectifiers can be much smoother for the nanophysicist or nanotechnician. For
example, as this summary article is being drafted the latest news in this ongoing development is that a
molecular photodiode rectifier has been invented, which meets some of the characteristics required for
ZPE conversion.8

This "device" sounds like it's based on the above theory. This kind of technology has been studied since quantum physics came on the scene, but no one has been able to produce a working prototype and demonstrate it. Thus these devices exist in the imagination only.

Unless of course, this is what they use to power the Stargate under Shian mountain and the MIB's have been able to suppress the technology elsewhere. If that's the case, then we have to warn these people!
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Unread postby frankthetank » Mon 17 Jan 2005, 16:49:26

endless supply of enegy and you want to power scooters? wtf


i didn't read it...sorry:( i try to stay clear of obvious scams...
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Unread postby BabyPeanut » Mon 17 Jan 2005, 22:24:43

Kingcoal wrote:Another ZPE link

In regards to rectifying thermal electrical noise, it is worth mentioning the U.S. Patent #3,890,161 by Charles M. Brown

I Told You So, You Blockhead!
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Unread postby bobbyald » Thu 20 Jan 2005, 19:16:06

You would have to be completely mad to believe in this.

I've ordered two :lol:
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Unread postby Pfish » Sat 22 Jan 2005, 23:31:40

That's cute. No phone number on their prospectus? Suite 3000 in Beverly Hills no less. BH is a thriving community of research and development. Before you buy into this, please contact me and I can sell you a bridge to go with your brand new scooter. We will call it the Coronado bridge. Small fee to put it into escrow. No problems and no hassels. You can even charge people for crossing it and make money.
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Unread postby maverickdoc » Sat 22 Jan 2005, 23:48:09

dont wast you time. :lol:
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Unread postby Taskforce_Unity » Sun 23 Jan 2005, 14:00:47

Quite ridiculous,

just check out the "demo" of the Excalibur,

you can get a video demo or come by the lab, you only have to pay 3000 dollar to see it and you must invest in the product for limited testing. 10000 dollars for full testing

* non disclosure agreement
* we have the right to refuse anyone a demonstration

Besides that there is not real explanation of how it works (yeah you tap zero point energy...., that's not an explanation it's a theory).
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Think about it a minute

Unread postby katkinkate » Mon 24 Jan 2005, 07:02:44

ZP energy: when you've sucked out every skerrick of energy out of a given area, ie. temperature is absolute zero, there's a tiny jiggle of energy still there, so small they could only measure fairly recently and that with very sophisticated and sensitive instruments.

I've heard if they did find a way to harvest this infinitesimally small amount of energy, you'd need to harvest all the ZPE out of a cubic kilometer (or mile or some large volume like that) to boil enough water for a cup of tea.
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Quantum energy

Unread postby HellMan » Thu 17 Mar 2005, 03:50:21

A while back I heard about quantum or free-point energy being discussed on a radio program. It got me interested and I did a bit of research. There are many sites out there discussing the matter. Here is one of them.

http://www.ldolphin.org/energetic.html

I know a lot of you will say you'll believe it when you see it, as it does sound pretty far fetched. But I'm sure the same was said about the nuclear age.

Just a thought. Since the petroleum industries still control most of the world's energy, I dont think any sort of free or cheap energy systems will come along as long as they still have the power and resources to buy them out and shut them down.

Hopefully, as oil gets more and more expensive, their stranglehold on exotic forms of energy can be loosened.

My opinion on the matter is even if it is possible, a lot of work and research still lay ahead before it is commercially available. I just hope we have the time left to develop it.

Just like Kennedy pledged to goto the moon by the end of the decade, we should now be devoting huge amounts of resourses and research into becoming fully energy dependent by the end of this decade. Instead, we have a President talking more about social security and going to mars in 30 years. In 30 years, oil will probably be over $200 dollars a barrel; assuming we even make it that long.

Alright, I'm done rambing now. Any thoughts?
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Unread postby linlithgowoil » Thu 17 Mar 2005, 07:53:10

well, some kind of exotic free energy device or nuclear fusion would save us, but i dont think its very likely, and neither it seems does any country in the world - becuase if they thought it was just a matter of time and money, we'd have come up with something by now.

there are certain limits that technology cant get passed, no matter how hard you try. also, you get diminishing returns the more technology is invented/used.

it would be great to have fusion or something though, but then we'd only go on and use up all the other resources like water and food.

its a problem. striving for progress kills us in the end.
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Unread postby EnviroEngr » Thu 17 Mar 2005, 11:16:55

Richard Heinberg discusses some of the alternatives in The Party's Over; zero-point and fusion are among them. If you haven't read it yet, I highly recommend it. You can go to Post Carbon Institute to get a copy: www.postcarbon.org or you can go to www.amazon.com

Richard's site is www.museletter.com by the way. The books section is at http://www.museletter.com/books.html

Alternatively, you can visit Richard Smalley at http://smalley.rice.edu/ and get a feel for what's required technologically to implement these kinds of things. Otherwise, look for Devil's posts. He has commented fairly extensively on these types of technologies.
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Unread postby gg3 » Fri 18 Mar 2005, 06:28:23

The whole concept of zero-point energy (ZPE) was a side-effect or spinoff from the attempt by an astrophysicist and a mathematician to develop a more satisfactory theory of inertial mass. Their theory, as originally published in the peer-reviewed literature, has met with the usual mix of interest and skepticism from the relevant scientific community.

I was in a project a few years ago to research potential sources of clean energy. We were quite thorough. We also spent a decent amount of time looking into zero-point energy, including sending someone off to visit a number of the individuals and organizations who claimed to have working prototype devices.

What we found was:

= The theory behind ZPE seems to be sound. The math holds up, and there are even some experimental findings (including one from Bell Labs) that support the theoretical predictions.

= We did not find any example of a prototype device that could produce reliable, repeatable results.

= We did find examples of devices that were potentially interesting, though again, nothing that could produce reliable power at the time.

= A minority of the people who purport to have prototype devices are simply engaged in conscious and deliberate fraud in an attempt to milk investors of their money. These individuals tend to get disproportionate publicity, casting a shadow on the entire field.

= The majority of the people who are working in this field are well-meaning individuals with a decent degree of technical knowledge, but many of them made mistakes that were obvious to someone with expert technical knowledge. For example, errors in calculating power inputs and outputs were typical and were easily found. In one such case, the device in question turned out to be viable as a more efficient form of a common piece of energy-using hardware.

= A viable ZPE technology could be turned into a source of weapons, including weapons of mass destruction. This should not be surprising, since any device or material that is capable of producing or storing energy in any form can be used as the basis for some type of weapon.

= Communications initiated by representatives of an interested government agency emphasized the potential of even a peaceful ZPE device to cause immediate disruption of world energy markets and severe destabilization of volatile energy-exporting countries. This appears to be a logical and reasonable concern. At no time was there any attempt by any agency to disrupt or interfere with our inquiries.

= My conclusion (which does not speak for the working-group) is that ZPE should not be counted on as a commercially viable source of energy in the foreseeable future. Ongoing research in the relevant areas is likely to produce occasional interesting findings in terms of pure science. Ongoing attempts to develop ZPE devices are likely to produce spinoffs that at best could provide for modest (though still useful) improvements in the efficiency of existing types of energy producing and consuming devices.
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Re: Quantum energy

Unread postby eric_b » Fri 18 Mar 2005, 08:56:27

HellMan wrote:A while back I heard about quantum or free-point energy being discussed on a radio program. It got me interested and I did a bit of research. There are many sites out there discussing the matter. Here is one of them.

http://www.ldolphin.org/energetic.html

(...)

Any thoughts?


Yeah. One word. Bunk.

Arg, seems like I'm spending all my time debunking these harebrained perpetual
motion energy schemes.

As an aside, the word 'quantum' doesn't mean anything in this regard.
Quantum simply refers to the microscopic (not directly observable) atomic
realm. All energy can be considered 'quantum energy'

'free-point' or 'zero-point' energy is an interesting concept, but if there was
anything to it (like cold fusion) these devices would be selling like hotcakes.
According to zero point energy if I were to ground a battery to the Earth
it would never exhaust itself.

Just another perpetual motion scheme.

Next?

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Unread postby Yossarian » Fri 18 Mar 2005, 09:40:24

gg3 excellent, well thought reply, you answered many of my questions. As I explored PO, ZPE has also been brought up, I'm glad someone on this board was able to look at the subject objectively.
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Re: Quantum energy

Unread postby cube » Sun 20 Mar 2005, 04:09:29

HellMan wrote:A while back I heard about quantum or free-point energy being discussed on a radio program. .....
Whenever the words "free" and "energy" gets used in the same sentence I find it very difficult to continue reading. No offense. 8)
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Unread postby BorneoRagnarok » Tue 05 Apr 2005, 03:21:20

Back in college days , I am Cold Fusion fan. I thought it can help to save the world where everyone only need to work 1 hour a day and robots help to plant ,harvest and process food. 8O

I lost the link but back in 1998 one ZPE scientist concludes that if reliable ZPE power generators are not mass manufacturers and distributed by 2003, it had pass the point of no return. The reason is fossil fuel powered infrastructures need at least 20-50 years to be upgraded to ZPE energy. I remembered that he mentioned oil will running out by 2040. He must use total resources/ Current usage for his calculation.
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Unread postby gg3 » Tue 05 Apr 2005, 08:58:18

Two years past your deadline, and still no reliable ZPE machines.

And I would know if there were, because one of the dudes in the working-group is a good friend of mine and he keeps an eye on that field because of the pure science aspects (i.e. reputable labs working on related issues arising from the same theoretical basis). (I don't think he expects to see a working device brought to the public any time soon either.)

Re. EricB: The difference between your a-priori dismissal and my negative findings, is that at least our group took the time to do the research and talk to people and examine a bunch of those devices first-hand.

And you can't write off the original theory; it has met with mixed reviews among peers (the pure science aspect: theory of inertial mass), so the jury is still out on that. Personally I think it has some potential merit (paragraph of explanations omitted to save space).

On the other hand, for anyone enthusiastic about ZPE turning into a viable energy source, look at it this way: As I said, there is potential for hypothetical ZPE devices to be used as the basis of weapons. The bottom line is, you should be damn glad that ZPE devices have not proven workable yet.

We still have solar, wind, and nuclear, and much potential for upgrading the efficiency of transportation and other energy-using systems. We have a long way to go before we've utilized all of those to their fullest potential.
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