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World wide Humanitarian crisis

For discussions of events and conditions not necessarily related to Peak Oil.

Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby Timo » Thu 12 May 2016, 12:45:12

onlooker wrote:
Timo wrote:
onlooker wrote:So we can all agree that lawns are truly a waste and would be much better to be converted to some sort of plot to grow food!

Not necessarily. We discovered a woodpecker who had dug a hole into one of our trees to build a nest yesterday. Obviously, the tree is dying, and we were planning on cutting it down this fall. I hope the pecker has successfully nested and moved on by then. Long story short, food gardens don't make very good habitat for wildlife, unless you're growing food for them and not yourself. Everything needs a balance to survive. Humans have tipped that balance against ourselves. Now, we're falling PDQ, and we're facing an uphill battle to restore that balance so we can continue living.

what about microorganisms and even creatures like worms. Will not the natural fertility of that plot of soil induce and develop a feedback ecosystem geared to allow food and concomitant organisms to thrive?

Yes, but that can only occur on large scales at the expense of other wildlife.
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 12 May 2016, 13:44:29

vtsnowedin wrote:
Newfie wrote:Damn, I can't figure out why I'm loosing so many posts!

The mind exercise is .....can a state support the current population based solely upon resources in its own borders?.........

T..............
Are there even enough fields in NY State to support that population? It gets cold in NY. Short growing seasons.

Look here for some insight to what can be produced in NY.
https://www.nass.usda.gov/Quick_Stats/A ... NEW%20YORK


What percentage of food is imported va exported?
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 12 May 2016, 14:17:50

:badgrin: Here is the best I can do
36,000 farms @ 193 acres average divided by 20 million population gives about 0.35 acres per person.

Is that enough to feed people. I'm presuming this will also have to generate heat and absorb all the wastes and feed the livstock and draft animals. And it has to be done in NYs climate.

And how long would it take to educate and tool the population to achieve this?

NJ has 1,023,000 acres and 9,000,000 people for 0.12 acres per person

Cuba has 8,000,000 acres and 11,500,000 people for 0.75 acres per person, no heat, three grainy seasons.

Ignoring the climate change, just on land area Cuba has over twice the resources as NY, 7 times NJ. If you include climate differences the comparison is much worse. AND the population was far less alien to the land being already much more agrarian, less developed.
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby Cog » Thu 12 May 2016, 16:47:44

@Newfie

Why should there be a artificial geographic boundary that stops at the New York border? Even before oil came into play, there were goods moving all around the country. Meat from the West, grain from the Midwest, so on. Ships, barges, wagons were all used to transport food before oil. Obviously diets would change but trade would not stop, even without oil.

Break out the steam engines. We aren't short on coal for the purposes of transport.
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby careinke » Fri 13 May 2016, 00:52:38

Newfie wrote:Carinke,
That assumes you have a farm, some equipment, and some knowledge. What about all the folks in the city apartments?


Well I was answering Cogs question about regenerating a farm. So why would I talk about city folks?
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby careinke » Fri 13 May 2016, 01:24:01

Timo wrote:
onlooker wrote:So we can all agree that lawns are truly a waste and would be much better to be converted to some sort of plot to grow food!

Not necessarily. We discovered a woodpecker who had dug a hole into one of our trees to build a nest yesterday. Obviously, the tree is dying, and we were planning on cutting it down this fall. I hope the pecker has successfully nested and moved on by then. Long story short, food gardens don't make very good habitat for wildlife, unless you're growing food for them and not yourself. Everything needs a balance to survive. Humans have tipped that balance against ourselves. Now, we're falling PDQ, and we're facing an uphill battle to restore that balance so we can continue living.


My food gardens make great habitats for wildlife.
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby careinke » Fri 13 May 2016, 01:32:02

Cog wrote:@Newfie

Why should there be a artificial geographic boundary that stops at the New York border? Even before oil came into play, there were goods moving all around the country. Meat from the West, grain from the Midwest, so on. Ships, barges, wagons were all used to transport food before oil. Obviously diets would change but trade would not stop, even without oil.

Break out the steam engines. We aren't short on coal for the purposes of transport.


I believe the question posed was which States could support their individual populations on their own resources. That said, if the question is can the US support itself with no outside assistance, of course we can, probably with out even a lot of effort.
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby careinke » Fri 13 May 2016, 02:20:39

Cog wrote:Lot of untapped potential for food growing out there. Around here the suburbia schools have acres of ground that is covered in grass, which is mowed, fertilized, and weeded. You have a large population of potential gardeners, strong in limb and young sitting in classrooms.

Much could be done and you wouldn't even need to be authoritarian about it. Just make it part of the curriculum to graduate. Many schools have community service requirements to graduate. Just substitute a gardening program. Tear up that useless grass and plant something useful that could feed kids real food, learn about where real food comes from, and exercise those bodies.


This is an area that intrigues me. I recently contributed to a (successful) Kickstarter program to develop a high school text book, teaching permaculture. The author has already completed most of the book, and will probably be available in hardcopy before the end of the year. I will get an electronic version this October.

The author is a retired teacher/curriculum developer and has already published a popular grade school permaculture course. He is working towards a complete K-12 permaculture school program. I am not aware of any subject k-12 that can not be taught using permaculture as it's basis.

If the schools themselves were designed using permaculture principles, the schools would be self supporting, and produce a variety of products for the community including healthy food, a better environment, and most importantly students empowered to take things into their own hands to make things better.

Lets face it the current education system is failing. Maybe instead of trying to send everyone to college, we teach them to take responsibility for their own lives, their environment, and give them the skills to learn on their own using todays amazing technology.
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 13 May 2016, 05:32:07

That sounds great, only I get a bit of cringe factor from the Permaculture TM factor, mainly due to local personality politics in Australia not really relevant to the big picture.
My brother is heavily involved with trying to set up a similar institution in Australia with a focus on indigenous topics throughout curriculum, otherwise permie/ native bush foods/ organic & local agro-economic priority.

Got a link for the Permie k-12?
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 13 May 2016, 15:22:07

Cog/Carinke,

Yes, I was playing the mind game set by Ibon with artificial boundaries. I was also responding and comparing to what Cuba experienced.

Some folks go haywire anytime you mention Cuba, pinko commie and all that. Put that aside and look at what the people did and the hardship they endured. Now how would other locations fare?

It's a good an interesting question because it starts to get to examining how vulnerable to a fall in the global trade system. And that is li led to the thread title because much humanitarian crisis comes from the inability to share food and resources. So it stokes me as relevant.

My best guess is that our single largest vulnerability to large a all collapse is failure in the international trade system which has the potential to inhibit most global trade and much national trade.

Carinke, I tend to keep coming back to city folks because it strikes me few folks here have lived long times, decades, in a really big city, over two million. Yet most of our population is in cities. I believe that the cities are very exposed to collapse, but even many farmers. How many farmers now have garden lots they tend?

Carinke, I'm not as optimistic as you that the US would do fine without global trade. Perhaps NY and CA will fare better for being part of the Union. But also all those hungry mousths will be a tremendous burden on other locations such as WA and OR. And success would require the Federal government to take strong control of asset allocation. Hoarding and price gouging need to eliminated. Many folks and companies would fight these necessacary measures tooth and nail.
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 13 May 2016, 15:48:45

"And that is li led to the thread title because much humanitarian crisis comes from the inability to share food and resources. So it stokes me as relevant." It is the essence of this topic. How will different regions and peoples now react to the turmoil of others moving and encroaching upon "their" areas? Trade is part of this but it really comes down to people. If people for whatever reason feel too insecure where they are, they will move. How will localities from the smallest to countries react. Which people get priority, which people are forsaken. Which persons will be incorporated, which left out. What will be the main criteria in evaluating all these questions. If we have talked about the need to be in a good location when the situation really deteriorates then can you or I or anyone be assured free passage to that area? That is all part of this discussion and some of it will have a personal relevance I am sure. So, doing my duty as the topic creator and keeping this thread on topic.
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby careinke » Fri 13 May 2016, 21:37:29

SeaGypsy wrote:That sounds great, only I get a bit of cringe factor from the Permaculture TM factor, mainly due to local personality politics in Australia not really relevant to the big picture.
My brother is heavily involved with trying to set up a similar institution in Australia with a focus on indigenous topics throughout curriculum, otherwise permie/ native bush foods/ organic & local agro-economic priority.

Got a link for the Permie k-12?


Here is a link to a video made by the author explaining his vision and work. His permaculture 1 books Geared toward middle school age kids) are already being used. His Permaculture 2 book is at the high school level, I'm sure there will be more.
https://vimeo.com/164019818?from=outro-embed

Here is a link to his main site, which gives his background as well as sales.
http://www.thepermaculturestudent.com/


He is not the only one working on this. Here is a group that costs five bucks a month and they are collaboratively working on developing a curriculum.
https://www.permiekids.com/

I would not worry about the TM issue. I looked into it a few years ago, and am convinced it was TM'd more to prevent anyone else from taking the name over. At least I have not seen ANY nefarious uses of the TM.
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Sat 14 May 2016, 06:03:26

careinke wrote:
SeaGypsy wrote:That sounds great, only I get a bit of cringe factor from the Permaculture TM factor, mainly due to local personality politics in Australia not really relevant to the big picture.
My brother is heavily involved with trying to set up a similar institution in Australia with a focus on indigenous topics throughout curriculum, otherwise permie/ native bush foods/ organic & local agro-economic priority.

Got a link for the Permie k-12?


Here is a link to a video made by the author explaining his vision and work. His permaculture 1 books Geared toward middle school age kids) are already being used. His Permaculture 2 book is at the high school level, I'm sure there will be more.
https://vimeo.com/164019818?from=outro-embed

Here is a link to his main site, which gives his background as well as sales.
http://www.thepermaculturestudent.com/


He is not the only one working on this. Here is a group that costs five bucks a month and they are collaboratively working on developing a curriculum.
https://www.permiekids.com/

I would not worry about the TM issue. I looked into it a few years ago, and am convinced it was TM'd more to prevent anyone else from taking the name over. At least I have not seen ANY nefarious uses of the TM.

Before you guys start brainwashing a countries school children about permaculture you should prove the concept by building a self sustaining permaculture community where no food from outside or non permaculture methods is allowed. You could then be justified in teaching however many children you could bring in and feed.
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 14 May 2016, 06:51:31

Newfie wrote:Cog/Carinke,

Yes, I was playing the mind game set by Ibon with artificial boundaries.


It is a mind game at the moment because there is no stopping the juggernaut of global trade before consequences impact us hard enough to break it down. But one day it will most likely happen. And when it does we can see the advantages of this unwinding. We often focus on what will be lost when we forecast collapse. Good to remind ourselves that what collapses will be both the good and the bad. To elaborate, what will happen if contraction brings the carrying capacity of humans down to the food and energy production available in each local bio-region, allowing for just minimum trade with just the most immediate neighboring bio-regions?

We move back to small diverse farms growing a wide assortment of crops. The industrial junk food industry will collapse and folks will eat grains and vegetables largely unprocessed. Just these first two examples will strengthen local communities, increase employment, combat obesity, increase health and wellbeing, reduce idle consumption. We will be reintroduced with physical labor, one of the activities that brings forth those joyous endorphins better than any other entertainment can do.

With the collapse of industrial/monoculture/agriculture crops as an export commodity what will then happen? Well, many bio-regions and countries that are not self sufficient in food production will experience a severe contraction of their population. Short term misery but long term stability. Within a generation or two our species will correct from human overshoot. This is positive for the species not for the individuals of course who will suffer in these affected regions.

Wellbeing must always encompass a balance between what is good for the individual and what is good for the collective. Our moral and ethical dilemma happens when these interests collide. What is good for the collective during human overshoot means some really hard suffering for the individuals caught in the vortex of contraction. But in the end we will have stable bio-regions with stable populations.

External consequences have always had the power over humans to resolve this moral dilemma with starvation, disease and war. This is something that makes social activists squirm but it is the hard naked truth.
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 14 May 2016, 08:02:35

External consequences have always had the power over humans to resolve this moral dilemma with starvation, disease and war. This is something that makes social activists squirm but it is the hard naked truth.

My reading of this musings by Ibon, is that we have been spoiled in the last 100 years or so by having a pretty effective control of these pitfalls of living a mortal life in this hostile Universe. That the norm has been and really always will be a natural culling based on the limitations of our own bodies and the surroundings which are not limitless and which present some dire challenges. I think the perspective of a Naturalist like Ibon is very useful because he has a sense of the fragility of life within the more staunch and resilient tapestry of Nature.
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 14 May 2016, 14:24:43

Anyway, as per my duty to keep replies on topic as the topic initiator, I post this. Iraq one of the places which most needs humanitarian aid.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/05/i ... 44163.html
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 14 May 2016, 15:06:53

Onlooker,

What is the "sustainable " population for those areas?

If it is less than what now live there then there is no reason to provide them support.

Hard truth, but it is likely a question we will have to answer often.
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 14 May 2016, 15:09:25

Newfie wrote:Onlooker,

What is the "sustainable " population for those areas?

If it is less than what now live there then there is no reason to provide them support.

Hard truth, but it is likely a question we will have to answer often.

True, we are approaching the time when we will need to decide how much Humanitarian Aid to provide. Not a decision I personally would enjoy making.
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 14 May 2016, 15:24:26

onlooker wrote:
Newfie wrote:Onlooker,

What is the "sustainable " population for those areas?

If it is less than what now live there then there is no reason to provide them support.

Hard truth, but it is likely a question we will have to answer often.

True, we are approaching the time when we will need to decide how much Humanitarian Aid to provide. Not a decision I personally would enjoy making.


One time Gearge Carlin made a hilarious statement " Why is it called an abortion when its human but an omelet when its a chicken"?

We are the species that fumigates millions and millions of acres with pesticides and herbicides, we clear cut millions of acres of tropical forests to plant oil palms and soy, without any moral qualms, and then when it comes to looking from afar at our own species going through a correction, we squirm.

Gearge Carlin, after making the above statement, asked " How about a little consistency"
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Re: World wide Humanitarian crisis

Unread postby Cog » Sat 14 May 2016, 15:29:04

Because Ibon, humans aren't chickens, or amoebas, or whatever lower species you would wish to categorize us as.

Humans have value. If not to the planet, at least within their own group.
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