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Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 14:48:59

asg70 wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying very hard to increase and then increase again the role that carbon-free energy sources


We'll never get there with Trump in office


You're right that we won't get there with Trump, but we didn't exactly get there with 8 years of Obama either. Didn't you notice that US Oil and NG production surged under Obama as the US embraced a "drill baby drill" energy policy and there was a huge increase in the number of oil wells drilled to frack shales across the country?----Don't you even understand that the huge increase in oil and NG production in the US we saw under Obama was the exact opposite of moving to a carbon free economy?

By not being honest with yourself about the shortcomings of both Rs and Ds you are exhibiting signs of extreme cognitive dissonance.

Cheers!

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Last edited by Plantagenet on Fri 28 Jul 2017, 14:59:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 14:57:52

P - "You're right that we won't get there with Trump, but we didn't get there with 8 years of Obama either." Exactly. Wind/solar aren't so much a political dynamic as they are technical and economic. There is little any POTUS can do to have significant impact in those arenas IMHO.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby baha » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 18:37:05

I'm not sure who you want to push you in what direction but I'm doing the pushing for myself. Relying on TPTB to even influence your problems is a recipe for disaster.

Take charge and do it yourself. I don't even preach paths. Just pick one and get on with it...
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 22:35:04

baha - "Take charge and do it yourself." So true: exactly what Texas did with wind power and now beginning to do with solar. :?: We didn't beg the feds to fix our grid so it could disburse wind power across the state: we spent $7 billion in tax payer money to get it done. That was a serious commitment to the alt energy path. And the result...a few years o!d but still makes the point:

"In Texas natural gas production from shale formations more than tripled from 2007 to 2013. Not surprisingly, natural gas is already the primary source of electricity in Texas, having long since eclipsed coal.

Aside from being the largest producer of natural gas in the country, Texas is also one of the largest wind producing regions in the entire world. Texas now gets approximately 10% of its electricity from wind power. Several years ago, the state literally had more wind power than it could use. West Texas wind turbines at times produced more electricity than could efficiently.
This resulted in ‘curtailments’ in which wind power was removed from the grid to prevent imbalances of supply and demand that could destabilize the grid. With the state’s grid upgrade it now has the power lines required to move West Texas wind more easily to the population centers in the eastern part of the state. As a result, curtailments have gone from 17% of the state’s wind capacity in 2007 to basically zero in 2014.

The result is not only having more NG to sell to consumers in other states (and to export to Mexico) we avoided the expense of building new NG and coal fired plants to meet our growing electricity demand.

And thanks to natural gas AND wind/solar: Coal was once responsible for nearly 40 percent of the total energy generated in Texas a decade ago, a figure that has dropped to 25 percent in the first half of 2016. Which helps to prevent a pending big battle between the state and the feds over coal generated pollution.

And what did our tax payers get in return for their $7 billion grid upgrade? Besides world class wind generation solar is also starting to have an impact. Texas is seeing some of the cheapest utility-scale solar prices in the U.S. Increased solar build out aided by the grid upgrade already done for the sake of wind power. Although there is less than 1 gigawatt of solar in Texas today, capacity is expected to quadruple by 2020. Texas grid operator ERCOT has outlined a scenario where solar could make up as much as 17 percent of capacity by 2030, largely replacing retired coal. Particularly beneficial during the very hot DAY TIME periods in the summer when AC demand spikes.

And when ever grid scale storage becomes economic Texas will already have the wind, solar and grid infrastructure already in place to take advantage of it. IOW we've avoided the chicken/egg problem most other states are faced with: Texas didn't wait for the intermittency problem to be solved. Again, a big commitment to the alt path.

Whether anyone else agreed that it was a good path chosen or not at the time, 10 years ago pick that path to go down and has never had a reason to look back.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 28 Jul 2017, 23:36:38

Rockman should stay out of AGW discussions. A man who makes his living pushing fossil-fuels is not objective.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 29 Jul 2017, 03:26:12

asg70 wrote:Rockman should stay out of AGW discussions. A man who makes his living pushing fossil-fuels is not objective.


Rockman brings an industry prospective that is appreciated around here. He happens to be a believer in AGW, if you did not know. He is more objective than most AGW fanboys.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby baha » Sat 29 Jul 2017, 05:23:10

KJ +1
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 29 Jul 2017, 11:30:59

70 - "A man who makes his living pushing fossil-fuels is not objective." What a bizarre statement. I guess you missed my post where I detailed reports on AGW and climate change I wrote in the early 70's while working on my BS degree in Earth Sciences. Maybe before you were born. LOL. But it shouldn't be a big surprise that someone who has studied in detail huge climate change scenarios that have happened on this planet over the last few billion years. Thus it's not difficult for the Rockman to appreciate the relatively minor climate changes man's consumption of fossil fuels could be bringing about.

As far as my career goes I'm moderately proud of the tiny bit I've contributed to our country's growth. But are you equally proud of you contributions with the rest of the gluttonous US fossil fuel consumers? Consumets who have DIRECTLY generated most of the GHG produced in the US? In the US that consumes a very disproportionate amount of the world's oil? Consumers that encouraged the acquisition of ff resources from 3rd world countries instead of letting them use them to grow their own economies? You and the other consumers that have paid the Rockman and his cohorts to produced those ff? You and the other consumers who have funded a govt that has brought about the deaths of thousands of our military and tens of thousands of civilians in efforts to stabilize regions that supply them and the rest of world with oil?

No responsibility? No shame? At all??? That's a tad difficult to appreciate. Maybe you're still in the denial mode the A-man continues to suffer from. If so I do understand you efforts to difflect your share of the responsibility for the f*cked up condition of the planet. LOL
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby baha » Tue 01 Aug 2017, 15:27:24

This is the world I live in. Here is an invitation to an inverter manufacturer (SMA) training and propaganda tour. http://www.sma-america.com/smaroadshow.html

I don't make this stuff up...it is called the 'Plug and Play' tour. This is not 'pie in the sky' this is here and now.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 11:52:49

This may sound like bragging about Texas. But it's not.. I get to do that a lot elsewhere. LOL. But ran across a stat that surprised me. While wind power just accounts for a tad less the 13% of electricity production in state, Texas produces more electricity from just wind power then half of all the states produce FROM ALL SOURCES. Granted Texas does have some huge geographical advantages over most states. But to produce more alt energy then the 25 other states produce from coal, nuclear, hydro, NG and alt sources COMBINED did greatly surprise me. Granted as discussed elsewhere going 70%+ alt doesn't look practical. But does it does seem like some of those 25 states could be doing better.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby baha » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 12:17:47

RM - I can't believe you are confusing everyone with facts. They are trying hard to maintain their illusions. I bet if we connected TX wind to NC solar we would have a grid :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 15:00:27

Wind and solar are a path we might have taken several decades ago, when we had abundant petroleum resources and the political will to transform society. Sadly the time has come and gone. We no longer have the money or fuel to revision, re-map and remake our industrial infrastructure.

Could have built out a comprehensive electric energy system with local distributed power generation and storage, local time-of-sun/wind manufacturing scheduling and regional economies. We blew that. Not happening now. Alt-power dreams are now emotional band-aides for the wealthy or back-to-land/doomstead dreams for the naive.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 15:36:06

pstarr wrote:when we had abundant petroleum resources


We have abundant petroleum resources.
Hubbert's curve, meet S-curve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 15:56:39

asg70 wrote:
pstarr wrote:when we had abundant petroleum resources


We have abundant petroleum resources.

Yes. And we have a super-abundance of trolls lol

I just happened on this also today

Plant wrote:
asg70 wrote:Go step away from your computer and live in an igloo up there. Until then, STFU.


Now you're just being a troll with a potty mouth.

You really should be banned permentantly. No one like you, no one respects your constant anger and haughty no-it-all attitude. Get help
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 16:41:01

pstarr wrote:
asg70 wrote:
pstarr wrote:when we had abundant petroleum resources


We have abundant petroleum resources.

Yes. And we have a super-abundance of trolls lol


I'm looking for a rebuttal to my point that we have abundant petroleum at the moment and don't find any. Is that what a concession looks like?

Forgive me for the sin of calling you on your bogus assertions.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 16:46:49

Don't bother. You are on ignore. Everybody's ignore.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 16:55:03

pstarr wrote:You are on ignore.


I've seen your modus operandi. You never actually ignore anyone.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 21:56:21

baha - "RM - I can't believe you are confusing everyone with facts."

The facts are out there for anyone who would get off their lazy asses and searched for them. LOL:

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/state/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Texas

And if anyone is unable to do the simple arithmetic let me know and I'll find a 10 year old yo help you. LOL. But seriously I was truly surprised to see Texas alt electric power compared to total generation by every state. So yes, Texas only produced 12.6% of our total electricity in 2016. But Texas consumes a huge amount of electricity: almost 50% more the #2 Florida. IOW Texas produces a hell of a lot more wind power electricity then the 12.6% of our total consumption would lead folks to think. For instance OK has the same wind power capacity just across the border from most of the big Texas wind farms. If OK built out the same wind generation it could supply 75% of its electricity consumption with that renewable source. And just like Texas it could use its NG powered plants as back up for when the wind isn't blowing enough. Yet the latest numbers show that OK produces less the 20% of its electricity from wind.

So comparing the 12.6% from wind for Texas to the 18.5% from wind for OK it doesn't look bad for the Okies. But looking at the absolute numbers (Texas: 56 and OK:14) the Okies lose big time. And for no apparent reason other then insufficient investment in wind power.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby kublikhan » Sat 16 Sep 2017, 23:46:28

ROCKMAN wrote:But to produce more alt energy then the 25 other states produce from coal, nuclear, hydro, NG and alt sources COMBINED did greatly surprise me. Granted as discussed elsewhere going 70%+ alt doesn't look practical. But does it does seem like some of those 25 states could be doing better.
Ratcheting up gross energy generation is not doing better. Doing better would be implementing energy conservation programs and getting more energy from renewables sources. Less gross energy consumption = less natural gas needs to be burned to balance the low wind days, less energy needs to be expended building power plants & power lines, less need for energy storage, etc.

ROCKMAN wrote:For instance OK has the same wind power capacity just across the border from most of the big Texas wind farms. If OK built out the same wind generation it could supply 75% of its electricity consumption with that renewable source. And just like Texas it could use its NG powered plants as back up for when the wind isn't blowing enough. Yet the latest numbers show that OK produces less the 20% of its electricity from wind.

So comparing the 12.6% from wind for Texas to the 18.5% from wind for OK it doesn't look bad for the Okies. But looking at the absolute numbers (Texas: 56 and OK:14) the Okies lose big time. And for no apparent reason other then insufficient investment in wind power.
CREZ cost $7 billion. That is more than the entire annual budget of Oklahoma. Texas can afford to build more gross power because it's gross economy is bigger. You can't expect Oklahoma to pony up the same investment dollars as Texas when the Texas economy dwarfs Oklahoma.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby ralfy » Sun 17 Sep 2017, 22:02:44

As explained several times in various threads, the global economy is capitalist and competitive. That means it does not operate on conservation to reduce consumption but the opposite.
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