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Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby StarvingLion » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 12:23:03

onlooker wrote:http://www.businessinsider.com/thorium-molten-salt-reactors-sorensen-lftr-2017-2
Called a molten-salt reactor, the technology was conceived during the Cold War and forgoes solid nuclear fuel for a liquid one, which it can "burn" with far greater efficiency than any power technology in existence. It also generates a small fraction of the radioactive waste compared to today's commercial reactors, which all rely on solid fuel.

And, in theory, molten-salt reactors can never melt down.

"It's reliable, it's clean, it basically does everything fossil fuel does today," Kirk Sorensen, the chief technology officer of nuclear-energy startup Flibe Energy, told Business Insider. Sorensen was speaking during an episode of Business Insider's podcast Codebreaker, which is produced with National Public Radio's "Marketplace. "

"And it does a whole bunch of things it doesn't do today, like make energy without emitting carbon," he added, though the same could be said of any nuclear reactor.


What a joke. The entire LFTR facility is extremely radioactive, its impossible to do any maintenance, and the very idea of mating a radioactively hot chemical processing plant to a reactor core is engineering insanity. Not only that but hydrogen explosions are a feature of the design. The whole concept is a POS. Even the most trivial problems would lead to total loss of investment.

And it doesn't provide something for nothing like Saudi North Ghawar oil and it has fixed costs that would blow this fairy tale finance scam world apart in months.

Nuclear reactors cannot prevent MASS BANKRUPTCY due to the loss of hard currency from Saudi oil and other similar oil fields (certainly not tar sands which has to be processed). The point of putting up 50000 garbage windmills is that the lights are definitely going out. Scamerica cannot afford coal plants and the shale ponzi scam is what it is: a scam.

Scamerica gots no oil
Scamerica gots no gas
Scamerica gots nuthin but Facebook
Makes her look like a crook.

All Scamerica gots left is FRAUD. The lights are going out and the energy "transition" is not due to the CO2 hoax but to MASS BANKRUPTCY from a lack of hard currency (oil).
At least 6 Billion dumbshits will die in The Oil Apocalypse.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 13:52:07

Starve nice to see you back with an honest appraisal. A breath of fresh air :)
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 14:01:31

"A breath of fresh air". From the litter box??? LOL
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 14:15:42

ROCKMAN wrote:"A breath of fresh air". From the litter box??? LOL

Okay. Okay. Starve may be a mad kitty but still . . . the f#cking lies and distraction that wash over America from the left and right is more than just a bit irritating . . . it can make you CRAZY SOMETIMES :? :-x :idea: [smilie=5badair.gif] [smilie=5blindfold.gif] [smilie=5eek.gif] [smilie=blob1.gif] [smilie=angel4.gif] [smilie=angel11.gif] [smilie=angel8.gif]
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 15:01:20

pstarr wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:"A breath of fresh air". From the litter box??? LOL

Okay. Okay. Starve may be a mad kitty but still . . . the f#cking lies and distraction that wash over America from the left and right is more than just a bit irritating . . . it can make you CRAZY SOMETIMES :? :-x :idea: [smilie=5badair.gif] [smilie=5blindfold.gif] [smilie=5eek.gif] [smilie=blob1.gif] [smilie=angel4.gif] [smilie=angel11.gif] [smilie=angel8.gif]


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Hubbert's curve, meet S-curve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby StarvingLion » Fri 09 Jun 2017, 13:32:28

The educated retards from the universities are something to behold.

First, they get rid of the coal based industry because of its "low value"
Second, they adopt The Quantum (Digital revolution) because of its fake productivity enhancement.
Third, they start running out of conventional oil and shit-can workers because they didn't buildcoal plants
Fourth, the oil is gone so they start closing coal and nuclear plants.
Fifth, the dipshits now realize the lights are about to go out and build out useless intermittent renewables
Sixth, the lights go out.

When are these educated idiots going to realize that Wind & Solar are xxxxing useless junk? Europe is already bankrupt from this shit.
At least 6 Billion dumbshits will die in The Oil Apocalypse.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 09 Jun 2017, 14:46:58

SL, it's truly incredible, your unerring ability to be on the wrong side of every issue.

I think you'll fit right in here, as long as you have a thick skin. You are welcome to stick around, but I must warn you, you are in for an education that may force you to rethink some of the stuff in your message above.
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Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby baha » Sat 10 Jun 2017, 07:02:20

The grid is the wrong path...

I recently got a service call from a guy who built his own solar system and can't get it to pass inspection. The inspector took one look at the rats nest of wires and wrote up two pages of code violations. I won't go into detail but the biggest mistake was using a cheap off-grid RV inverter instead of a grid- interactive inverter. $900 vs $3000.

Yeah, he's not an electrician, he's an IT guy/engineer with an over inflated opinion of his own abilities. The system he built will work, and the shed with the batteries may not burn down, but he's on the hairy edge. I have a system similar to this but not grid connected and I know what I'm doing...

I quoted him $4000 to bring the system up to code. The inspector required a grid-interactive inverter even though the transfer switch will not allow the two to connect to each other. Of course, if the transfer switch malfunctions, the inverter goes BOOM! I haven't heard back...

The point here is Ghung has the right idea. Building your own power source is a lot easier if you don't have to worry about the grid. The prices are much lower for stand alone equipment. YOU have the choice of storing power in a battery or just using it while it's available. Solar prices are much lower if you act like the grid doesn't exist and you are on your own. Which is what I have been preaching all along :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 10 Jun 2017, 09:56:59

Baha,

That is much more like a boat system. Stand alone. And always the first principal is to reduce load as much as possible. Then everything becomes easier, cheaper, less complex, more reliable.

Starving,

While you may be somewhat overstating your case I think you have a good gut understanding. We seem to be convienced that the solution lies in technology and complexity. I would strongly disagree.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby baha » Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:03:48

BTW - All the economic analysis we read about solar is based on grid-tied systems. At this point grid tied is competitive...off-grid is superior. How many batteries could you buy with the money you save from abandoning maintenance of the grid?

Newfie +1, technology is not the answer. Simplicity and focus are all you need.

The point is when the sun goes down, have a margarita and relax. Tomorrow is another day...
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 10 Jun 2017, 12:03:32

baha wrote:
The point is when the sun goes down, have a margarita and relax. Tomorrow is another day...


Playing dominoes with your neighbors under the shade of a tree on a hot summers day...... that is what you will do instead of air conditioning.

Peek through the open window as the drone of the fan proudly blows over her naked body, messing up her hair. She turns and opens her eyes smiling.

Life can be sweet without air conditioning.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 10 Jun 2017, 13:25:03

+++
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby kublikhan » Sat 10 Jun 2017, 13:47:47

baha wrote:BTW - All the economic analysis we read about solar is based on grid-tied systems. At this point grid tied is competitive...off-grid is superior. How many batteries could you buy with the money you save from abandoning maintenance of the grid?
Here is an analysis of utility vs residential scale. They conclude that utility scale solar is much cheaper than residential scale solar.

The study finds that customer generation costs per solar MWh are estimated to be more than twice as high for residential-scale systems than the equivalent amount of utility-scale PV systems. The large gap in per-MWh costs between utility- and residential-scale systems results principally from: (a) lower total plant costs per installed kilowatt for larger facilities; and (b) greater solar electric output from the same PV capacity (300 MW-DC) due to optimized panel placement, tracking and other economies of scale and efficiencies associated with utility-scale installations.

Overall, the findings in this report demonstrate that utility-scale PV system is significantly more cost-effective than residential-scale PV systems when considered as a vehicle for achieving the economic and policy benefits commonly associated with PV solar. If, as the study shows, there are meaningful cost differentials between residential- and utility-scale systems, it is important to recognize these differences, particularly if utilities and their regulators are looking to maximize the benefits of procuring solar capacity at the lowest overall system costs. Simply stated, most of the environmental and social benefits provided by PV systems can be achieved at a much lower total cost at utility-scale than at residential-scale.
Comparative Generation Costs of UtilityScale and Residential-Scale PV
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby baha » Sat 10 Jun 2017, 14:37:07

That article is about residential scale (grid connected) solar PV...As I said there is no analysis done of off-grid solar. TPTB don't consider it since it goes against the existing meme. There is no benefit to society, just the owner :)

Ibon - I have officially abandoned my plans to visit Plantagenet in my electric VW. I think I'll go to Panama. How far is it from NC?
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby kublikhan » Sat 10 Jun 2017, 18:13:09

baha wrote:That article is about residential scale (grid connected) solar PV...As I said there is no analysis done of off-grid solar. TPTB don't consider it since it goes against the existing meme. There is no benefit to society, just the owner
There's no need to start down the rabit hole of "TPTB are suppressing the research!" There are analysis out there if you look for them. Some more in-depth than others. Here's a few:

Off-Grid Solar Systems
An off-grid solar system (off-the-grid, standalone) is the obvious alternative to one that is grid-tied. For homeowners that have access to the grid, off-grid solar systems are usually out of question. Here`s why:
To ensure access to electricity at all times, off-grid solar systems require battery storage and a backup generator (if you live off-the-grid). On top of this, a battery bank typically needs to be replaced after 10 years. Batteries are complicated, expensive and decrease overall system efficiency.
...
Living off the grid and being self-sufficient feels good. For some people, this feeling feeling is worth more than saving money.
Grid-Tied, Off-Grid and Hybrid Solar Systems

The average solar shopper offsets 86 percent of their annual electricity use with solar – a significant amount, but not enough to go fully “off the grid.” While it is technically feasible to go off the grid with solar batteries, it’s rarely cost effective when compared to the benefits of staying grid-tied.
grid tied solar vs solar battery backup

Off-Grid
Downside: Cannot be expected to provide power for all your loads since the cost and volume of batteries would be prohibitive. Off-Grid systems require a lot more specialized equipment to function that is more costly and more complex to install. Specifically they require a central/string inverter, a charge controller as well as a batteries.

Sizing the solar array and the batteries required is complex. Detailed analysis of your requirements will be needed to provide for your minimal critical needs. You'll also need to rewire you main electrical panel to isolate the "critical loads" so that only they are provided power in an outage. This means that your well pump, refrigerator and a few lights are provided power while your air conditioners and TV and other non-essential loads are not.

This is definately more complex to install as well. There are dangerious components, mostly dealing with high amp batteries so caution needs to be exercised. Also, batteries are expensive, require ongoing maintenance and periodic replacement.

Given the additional specialized equipment required and the fact that it requires come complex installation, expect a off-grid system to cost four(4) times as much to install per watt and to require ongoing maintenance outlays.
On-Grid vs Off-Grid Solar

On-Grid RE
I urge most folks to use the utility grid with their RE system. More than 40 U.S. states have some form of net metering available. This means that a large majority of U.S. utility customers can “bank” any surplus energy their PV system produces with their local utility, and use the credit to pay for future utility electricity usage.

When Does Off-Grid Make Sense?
If you have property miles from the grid, or in a location that has no grid, your only affordable option may be to set up an independent system. Be realistic about the burden (financial and otherwise) of living off-grid! On the other end of the scale, if it’s going to cost you a quarter of a million dollars to extend the grid, an off-grid system may be very economical and sensible. (See “Methods” in this issue for more on the economics.)

Reality Check
On-grid RE system owners have a great deal. When their resource—sun, wind, or water—is available, they use it. When they make too much energy, the grid takes the surplus and gives credit. And when it’s dark, calm, or the creek is dry, the utility is there to provide the needed energy. Off-grid system owners have to take all the responsibility of generating all of their energy, all of the time.

The most challenging part of off-grid living is dealing with the variable resource. Raising a bunch of kids off-grid taught me a lot of lessons. One is that folks usually assume that electricity will be constant and abundant. This is part of our culture, and off-grid folks are not immune, since they interact with the on-grid culture on a regular basis. While there are many times when RE is very abundant—most every sunny day and whenever there’s a windstorm, for example—there are other times when it’s scarce. Surfing this wave of abundance and scarcity can be satisfying to some of us, but it’s challenging to others.
So You Want to Go Off-Grid

This study is about EROEI not costs, but it is one of the few EROEI studies I have seen that incorporate battery storage into the analysis. The results were not encouraging for your argument as battery backed up solar was the absolute worse performer of all technologies looked at. Like, an order of magnitude worse:

nuclear, hydro, coal, and natural gas power systems (in this order) are one order of magnitude more effective than photovoltaics and wind power. Some energy generation techniques need more buffering (wind energy, photovoltaics). Storage for long periods can become a very cost-intense and even impossible business.

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Energy intensities, EROIs, and energy payback times of electricity generating power plants
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby baha » Sun 11 Jun 2017, 04:52:27

Thank you Kub,
I stand corrected. There are a few people who consider off-grid. But they still assume you want to burn thru power at all times without concern.

No one considers keeping it simple. Off grid systems will function without batteries, or with a very small battery just to smooth things out a little. Accepting the fact that power goes away when the sun goes down will save about a third of the cost.

Those articles are 2-5 years old, none of them consider Lithium batteries. Things are changing too fast.

I never said there was a conspiracy...just ignorance. I should have said 'the existing meme' does not allow consideration of systems that require compromise. Again, if you can't have power 24/7 then it's not even an option. This will change in the future.

I guess I see things differently. Sizing arrays, inverters, battery banks, and critical load panels is what I do. I have performed detailed load analysis of my own usage and the base load of my house is about 300 watts. It has never spiked above 3 kW. Even though my average daily usage is 15 kW-hrs, only about 2 of that is at night (except in the cold of winter and my next project is solar radiant floor heating).

If I were to abandon the grid and design a minimal system that just barely meets my needs (and requires compromise), I could do it for about $2-3000. And there would be times I would have no power.

As it is, I am installing a $15k system with 15 kW-hrs of storage that will be grid tied and capable of powering my house seamlessly. This is the scenario that is given a full financial analysis. Almost an order of magnitude difference.

I just took a class about battery based PV systems. Most of it was about how to size parts of the system. I used current techniques to design my home system and it lead me to the $15k system I am installing. My point is, if I was not a spoiled american and was willing to compromise just a little I could have a reasonable amount of power for 1/3 the price. That is a rabbit hole I will gladly go down. And I'll take Duke Power down with me :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby baha » Sun 11 Jun 2017, 05:05:04

I'd like to point out in the class I took a system shutdown or dead batteries is considered a failure. The design criteria is for 24/7 availability. Even the solar industry is not willing to compromise...

Inverter sizing is based on everything turned on at once...after all this is america :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby baha » Sun 11 Jun 2017, 06:09:28

OK - That's a little misleading. Let me clarify.

The $15k system I am installing will produce 1000 kW-hrs a month, twice what I need. I am oversizing to prepare for adding on to the house, an electric car, and the ability to fully charge my battery from dead with about 4 hours of Sun.

The minimal system design would only produce 500 kW-hrs a month. It would not allow for expansion or even 24/7 operation. On rainy days I would be cold and wet.

This is not truly representative of the public since I live on 500 kW-hrs a month. Most people can't do that :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sun 11 Jun 2017, 08:51:33

Why should I choose forced off grid electric austerity when grid power is abundant and cheap? You are not forced to live my lifestyle why should I be forced to live yours? Grid power has always had the advantage of scale, even that money wasting solar farm built by Bowling Green Ohio comes out way ahead of cabin in the woods small scale independent power.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 11 Jun 2017, 09:16:15

Subjectivist wrote:Why should I choose forced off grid electric austerity when grid power is abundant and cheap? You are not forced to live my lifestyle why should I be forced to live yours? Grid power has always had the advantage of scale, even that money wasting solar farm built by Bowling Green Ohio comes out way ahead of cabin in the woods small scale independent power.

You're right. If we had a high enough CO2 tax, there would be a strong incentive to move people away (to a LARGE extent) from burning excessive FF's, and the details could sort themselves out.

Solar, wind, wave, conservation, etc. Whatever works for people and doesn't quickly destroy the biosphere should be just dandy in a rational world, at least compared to the status quo.

The problem (IMO) is we're pretty much the opposite of that, and aside from philosophy and shrill accusations, overall, humanity isn't doing much about it, compared to the magnitude of the problem.
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