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Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 17 Feb 2017, 16:51:00

Subjectivist wrote:Click the link, a picture with words but makes my point beautifully.


https://www.facebook.com/R2ANM/photos/a ... 470622269/


Except that poster ignores the facts about nuclear. Nuclear energy has a longer lead time and higher permitting cost and higher litigation costs during operations than any other power plant type.

Then in operations, since Jimmy Carter banned nuclear fuel recycling for danger of Plutonium proliferation, we use only refined and enriched uranium. The uranium ore is mined by petroleum fuelled machinery, then transported by truck, then enriched in Uranium hexafluoride high speed centrifuges spun by electricity produced largely from coal. Bottom line: nuclear power generates 20% of the atmospheric carbon as coal power, and that little only because reactors seldom need refuelling.

Solar and wind may be sporadic, but the reason we build gas turbine and hydropower "peaking" plants instead of more efficient diesel and steam turbine plants is to use them to compensate for sporadic power plants.

Don't mistake me for a nuclear critic, I'm very much pro-nuclear. I just believe in facts not BS. I also believe in solar and wind, and using such for off-grid residence-scale power.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Fri 17 Feb 2017, 18:20:13

KaiserJeep wrote:I'll offer this. Here in California I signed up for a $0 down, Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) solar lease, and within 5 months all the permits were done and I had a 2.8 kva solar array on my roof and an inverter and a 2nd power meter.

Things changed. Firstly the solar array had been sized at 90% of my average electrical power over the last 36 months. I spent $213 on LED and compact florescent bulbs, replacing all but seven in my house. Then I put certain outside lamps on motion detectors, and stopped leaving them on as "security lights". Then the fees and taxes changed, increasing my monthly costs for electricity by over $10. During this time I also acquired a portable A/C, and began using it in a formerly non-A/C home, but only when needed.

At this morning's monthly update, I have saved $1503 in electricity charges in six years, based on my spreadsheet. Even if you deduct the $213 I voluntarily spent in lighting upgrades, I am $1290 ahead. I think I would have bought the new bulbs anyway.

My home is a smallish suburban home on a tiny lot. Most people can benefit from solar.

My system cost $3g for 1.5KW my power bills have gone from $1200 a year to $400 a year
Then under a Conservative state government they introduced higher connection costs and charges and lower feed in tariffs its now $600 a year.
Its more than paid for itself but I virtually got it for free, when the Federal government handed out helicopter money to everyone for the GFC.
So its the gift that keeps on giving................god bless democratic socialism.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 18 Feb 2017, 00:40:59

Monk - Sounds like you've done great. But you didn't really get it for free per se...you got it at a cost subsidized by the govt/tax payers. But that doesn't necessarily mean the arrangement wasn't economic on a net level. But to judge the full value of the effort the cost of the subsidies need to be included.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby Fairestcape » Sat 18 Feb 2017, 09:38:32

Certainly is ironic that Texas (the oil state) seems to be leading the way with ERCOT's renewables initiatives. Solar + wind will be the future, where the benefits & limitations of each method help to cancel out the negatives. The planet's been powered by solar and wind for around 5 billion years now - as a species, we existed within its "framework" for almost 99% of our evolution, but when the industrial revolution of the late 18th / early 19th century raised energy demand exponentially (and has done ever since) we had to unlock the stored energy in hydrocarbons (starting with whale oils) at unsustainable rates.

On average, every square yard of the earth's surface is exposed to around 150 watts of solar energy every day. Plenty of variation here, but the average is about 150 - 160 watts. So, a square mile gets exposed to around 450,000,000 watts a day.

Elon Musk did the math some years ago showing that an area 100mi X 100mi of solar panels could theoretically provide sufficient power for the entire USA.

Even if we were to "sacrifice" a few area of this collective size in some of the barren regions in SW USA, it's a small price to pay in comparison to the damage carbon is doing globally.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 26 May 2017, 12:16:17

I am reluctantly on the side now of nuclear with state of the art Thorium Reactors.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 26 May 2017, 12:47:09

onlooker wrote:I am reluctantly on the side now of nuclear with state of the art Thorium Reactors.


Do you even realize how foolish that statement is?

Thorium reactors have never been used for nuclear power production, and even research on thorium power was abandonned over 30 years ago.

Thorium at best has decades of extremely expensive R&D before it can even be used. However by then, it might be uncompetitive with 5th generation uranium power, which has been in continuous uses since the 1950's.

Anything you read about thorium is for the most part nuclear physicists offering bait for government grants.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 26 May 2017, 12:49:06

So what nuclear sources if any are you in favor of K?
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 26 May 2017, 12:55:45

http://www.businessinsider.com/thorium- ... ftr-2017-2
Called a molten-salt reactor, the technology was conceived during the Cold War and forgoes solid nuclear fuel for a liquid one, which it can "burn" with far greater efficiency than any power technology in existence. It also generates a small fraction of the radioactive waste compared to today's commercial reactors, which all rely on solid fuel.

And, in theory, molten-salt reactors can never melt down.

"It's reliable, it's clean, it basically does everything fossil fuel does today," Kirk Sorensen, the chief technology officer of nuclear-energy startup Flibe Energy, told Business Insider. Sorensen was speaking during an episode of Business Insider's podcast Codebreaker, which is produced with National Public Radio's "Marketplace. "

"And it does a whole bunch of things it doesn't do today, like make energy without emitting carbon," he added, though the same could be said of any nuclear reactor.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 26 May 2017, 13:26:12

I favor modern designs or so called "inherently safe" uranium-fueled reactors that do not melt when cooling ceases. I also favor retro-fitting many existing reactors with "passive emergency cooling", aka a large water tank on top, which can trickle-feed cooling water for however many days needed until emergency cooling pumps can be repaired or installed. Such designs would have prevented both the Chernobyl and Three Mile Island loss-of-cooling problems.

BTW, your MSR (molten salt reactor) is a uranium reactor. These are broadly classed by the type of coolant used as BWRs (boiling water reactors)(production), PWRs (pressurized water reactors)(production), MSRs (molten salt reactors)(experimental), and LSRs (liquid sodium reactors)(submarines only).
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby StarvingLion » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 12:23:03

onlooker wrote:http://www.businessinsider.com/thorium-molten-salt-reactors-sorensen-lftr-2017-2
Called a molten-salt reactor, the technology was conceived during the Cold War and forgoes solid nuclear fuel for a liquid one, which it can "burn" with far greater efficiency than any power technology in existence. It also generates a small fraction of the radioactive waste compared to today's commercial reactors, which all rely on solid fuel.

And, in theory, molten-salt reactors can never melt down.

"It's reliable, it's clean, it basically does everything fossil fuel does today," Kirk Sorensen, the chief technology officer of nuclear-energy startup Flibe Energy, told Business Insider. Sorensen was speaking during an episode of Business Insider's podcast Codebreaker, which is produced with National Public Radio's "Marketplace. "

"And it does a whole bunch of things it doesn't do today, like make energy without emitting carbon," he added, though the same could be said of any nuclear reactor.


What a joke. The entire LFTR facility is extremely radioactive, its impossible to do any maintenance, and the very idea of mating a radioactively hot chemical processing plant to a reactor core is engineering insanity. Not only that but hydrogen explosions are a feature of the design. The whole concept is a POS. Even the most trivial problems would lead to total loss of investment.

And it doesn't provide something for nothing like Saudi North Ghawar oil and it has fixed costs that would blow this fairy tale finance scam world apart in months.

Nuclear reactors cannot prevent MASS BANKRUPTCY due to the loss of hard currency from Saudi oil and other similar oil fields (certainly not tar sands which has to be processed). The point of putting up 50000 garbage windmills is that the lights are definitely going out. Scamerica cannot afford coal plants and the shale ponzi scam is what it is: a scam.

Scamerica gots no oil
Scamerica gots no gas
Scamerica gots nuthin but Facebook
Makes her look like a crook.

All Scamerica gots left is FRAUD. The lights are going out and the energy "transition" is not due to the CO2 hoax but to MASS BANKRUPTCY from a lack of hard currency (oil).
EV's are fuel-less automobiles and Thorium Reactors are fuel-less reactors. Perfect.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 13:52:07

Starve nice to see you back with an honest appraisal. A breath of fresh air :)
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 14:01:31

"A breath of fresh air". From the litter box??? LOL
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 14:15:42

ROCKMAN wrote:"A breath of fresh air". From the litter box??? LOL

Okay. Okay. Starve may be a mad kitty but still . . . the f#cking lies and distraction that wash over America from the left and right is more than just a bit irritating . . . it can make you CRAZY SOMETIMES :? :-x :idea: [smilie=5badair.gif] [smilie=5blindfold.gif] [smilie=5eek.gif] [smilie=blob1.gif] [smilie=angel4.gif] [smilie=angel11.gif] [smilie=angel8.gif]
There's nothing deeper than love. In fairy tales, the princesses kiss the frogs, and the frogs become princes. In real life,the princesses kiss princes, and the princes turn into frogs

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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 06 Jun 2017, 15:01:20

pstarr wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:"A breath of fresh air". From the litter box??? LOL

Okay. Okay. Starve may be a mad kitty but still . . . the f#cking lies and distraction that wash over America from the left and right is more than just a bit irritating . . . it can make you CRAZY SOMETIMES :? :-x :idea: [smilie=5badair.gif] [smilie=5blindfold.gif] [smilie=5eek.gif] [smilie=blob1.gif] [smilie=angel4.gif] [smilie=angel11.gif] [smilie=angel8.gif]


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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby StarvingLion » Fri 09 Jun 2017, 13:32:28

The educated retards from the universities are something to behold.

First, they get rid of the coal based industry because of its "low value"
Second, they adopt The Quantum (Digital revolution) because of its fake productivity enhancement.
Third, they start running out of conventional oil and shit-can workers because they didn't buildcoal plants
Fourth, the oil is gone so they start closing coal and nuclear plants.
Fifth, the dipshits now realize the lights are about to go out and build out useless intermittent renewables
Sixth, the lights go out.

When are these educated idiots going to realize that Wind & Solar are xxxxing useless junk? Europe is already bankrupt from this shit.
EV's are fuel-less automobiles and Thorium Reactors are fuel-less reactors. Perfect.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 09 Jun 2017, 14:46:58

SL, it's truly incredible, your unerring ability to be on the wrong side of every issue.

I think you'll fit right in here, as long as you have a thick skin. You are welcome to stick around, but I must warn you, you are in for an education that may force you to rethink some of the stuff in your message above.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby baha » Sat 10 Jun 2017, 07:02:20

The grid is the wrong path...

I recently got a service call from a guy who built his own solar system and can't get it to pass inspection. The inspector took one look at the rats nest of wires and wrote up two pages of code violations. I won't go into detail but the biggest mistake was using a cheap off-grid RV inverter instead of a grid- interactive inverter. $900 vs $3000.

Yeah, he's not an electrician, he's an IT guy/engineer with an over inflated opinion of his own abilities. The system he built will work, and the shed with the batteries may not burn down, but he's on the hairy edge. I have a system similar to this but not grid connected and I know what I'm doing...

I quoted him $4000 to bring the system up to code. The inspector required a grid-interactive inverter even though the transfer switch will not allow the two to connect to each other. Of course, if the transfer switch malfunctions, the inverter goes BOOM! I haven't heard back...

The point here is Ghung has the right idea. Building your own power source is a lot easier if you don't have to worry about the grid. The prices are much lower for stand alone equipment. YOU have the choice of storing power in a battery or just using it while it's available. Solar prices are much lower if you act like the grid doesn't exist and you are on your own. Which is what I have been preaching all along :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 10 Jun 2017, 09:56:59

Baha,

That is much more like a boat system. Stand alone. And always the first principal is to reduce load as much as possible. Then everything becomes easier, cheaper, less complex, more reliable.

Starving,

While you may be somewhat overstating your case I think you have a good gut understanding. We seem to be convienced that the solution lies in technology and complexity. I would strongly disagree.
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby baha » Sat 10 Jun 2017, 10:03:48

BTW - All the economic analysis we read about solar is based on grid-tied systems. At this point grid tied is competitive...off-grid is superior. How many batteries could you buy with the money you save from abandoning maintenance of the grid?

Newfie +1, technology is not the answer. Simplicity and focus are all you need.

The point is when the sun goes down, have a margarita and relax. Tomorrow is another day...
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: Wind & Solar Are Wrong Path

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 10 Jun 2017, 12:03:32

baha wrote:
The point is when the sun goes down, have a margarita and relax. Tomorrow is another day...


Playing dominoes with your neighbors under the shade of a tree on a hot summers day...... that is what you will do instead of air conditioning.

Peek through the open window as the drone of the fan proudly blows over her naked body, messing up her hair. She turns and opens her eyes smiling.

Life can be sweet without air conditioning.
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