[AgentR11]

It was better off under US and Western leadership, and I hate to say it but Russia staying out of the ME, and then Iran being contained.

Oh and this.. "it was better off". Not. Corrected: American interests were better served when the Middle East was more firmly under our command. But even then, our command has always been tenuous.

If we wanted Russia to stay quiet and out of the Middle East, it was essential to have done two things that we failed or refused to do.

1. We must have prevented, at any and all cost, the citizens of Russia from experience hunger during that initial transition period after the USSR dissolved.
2. We must not have placed the survival of Russia as an independent state in jeopardy by attempting to capture Sevastopol.

By failing these two items, we radically altered the world. In our lifetimes, Russia will never go back to a sleeping, drunken resource exporter. They are in the fight now, and they believe we intend to kill them. Plain and simple. They view us as willing to inflict any level of suffering on a vulnerable people in order to enrich ourselves; and that we bring chaos, death, and destruction wherever we go.

You can not undo those two things we did. It is irrecoverable.

All you can do now, is mitigate the impacts, or engage Russia in World War 3 and thus end industrial civilization.

I would recommend a policy of mitigating impacts.

Let Russia obliterate Syrian jihadis till they're satisfied. Maybe cheer'em on a little.

If we feel like we need to blow up some ISIS dudes, I'm sure we can find some, or ask the Russians to leave a few on the table. Blow'em up good, take some gun cam video; run it on discovery channel and call it victory.

[Sixstrings]

Arguably one of the most complicated, nuanced, and unpredictable countries on the planet, and you think you saw "what's what" in an hour.

Did you see it? It was really good. But I'd heard about the things regarding Erdogan, *years ago*.

So why is that silly, that I'd actually like to see an OBJECTIVE professional balanced and smart journalist do a program about Syria and Assad, so that I could be an informed voter? Someone like Christiane Amanpour would be good, or Fareed Zacharia.

Agent, there's a lot of people I know that can barely find Canada on a map, much less know anything about even Russia, much less are a Syria expert. For that matter, most of our congressmen don't know anything either. Objective journalists are actually important. It's how people learn about issues, but from trustworthy non-biased sources.

[AgentR11]

They have these things called... "Universities". They teach classes, with like, professors.. and books.

[Sixstrings]

They have these things called... "Universities". They teach classes, with like, professors.. and books.

Well jesus, excuse me, I'm sorry. I know quite a bit about all of world history but not so much about Syria, please forgive me.

[AgentR11]

I don't object to journalism or even tv shows. I objected to the comment about "what's what". Very specifically.

You can't even do justice to the flame-bait of the Armenian genocide in an hour. And that issue is just the tip of the iceberg; yet has a huge impact on stuff happening right now. Right now, half of Russia's air defense net is stationed in... ARMENIA. Because of that issue, and how it played out over the last century, you have a NATO country almost fully locked down under a hostile air defense system, manned by people with itchy trigger fingers.

[Sixstrings]

I don't object to journalism or even tv shows. I objected to the comment about "what's what". Very specifically.

You can't even do justice to the flame-bait of the Armenian genocide in an hour. And that issue is just the tip of the iceberg; yet has a huge impact on stuff happening right now. Right now, half of Russia's air defense net is stationed in... ARMENIA. Because of that issue, and how it played out over the last century, you have a NATO country almost fully locked down under a hostile air defense system, manned by people with itchy trigger fingers.

Well anyhow, back to the central question at hand regarding Syria policy.

Must "assad go" or does "assad stay."

I'd just be curious about what the day-to-day reality is. Some on this forum have been mentioning that in retrospect, Ghadaffi should have stayed in power maybe, or that Saddam Hussein should have.

Ted Cruz: U.S. More Secure With Assad in Power

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Republican presidential candidate Ted Cruz says the U.S. is more secure with Syrian President Bashar Assad in power, accepting one of the Middle East's most brutal dictators as an unfortunate ally in the fight against the Islamic State.

...

"If you topple a stable ruler, throw a Middle Eastern country into chaos and hand it over to radical Islamic terrorists, that hurts America," Cruz said.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/12/03/cruz_us_more_secure_with_assad_in_power_128921.html

Rubio Goes After Cruz for Wanting to Keep Assad in Power

Cruz’s position clashes with a main theme of Thursday’s Republican Jewish Coalition candidates’ forum in Washington D.C., at which all 14 GOP presidential candidates are speaking: that Iran, and governments that align themselves with Iran, are the root of all evil in the region, and all U.S. policy in the region should be oriented around debilitating Iran. That means popping off Iran’s man in Damascus. But the uncertainty about who would take over if Assad is toppled has produced a major debate within Israel itself, and it’s one that now has migrated to the Republican campaign.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/12/03/marco_rubio_ted_cruz_debate_assad_at_republican_jewish_coalition_forum.html

There ought to be a debate about Assad, and really there should be some objective journalism giving the whole picture and what his government is like and how bad is it really, or maybe is not, compared to the ethnicities he's fighting.

Otherwise all I see are people saying "assad should stay" or "assad should go."

I just wonder what the current situation is. What is "the assad regime," is it like total nazis? Do they have secret police and everyone's afraid, and secret prisons filled to the brim?

Do they really just "barrel bomb" residential neighborhoods? Some articles say the Assad government has wholesale wiped out like a million people, or something.

There just needs to be more info, that's all I'm saying.

Marco Rubio's position on it:

Rubio, in a question-and-answer session following his speech to the hawkish pro-Israel crowd, was prepared to argue his side. “As long as Bashar al-Assad is in power, you’re going to have in power two things,” he said. “No. 1, you’re going to have an Iranian puppet, who serves not just as a conduit to Iranian influence in the region, but someone who has actively facilitated anti-Israeli, anti-American terrorism in that region.” Keeping Assad also leaves in power an “irritant,” he added. “As long as Assad is in power you’re going to have in place someone that creates the conditions for the next ISIS to pop up, for the next ISIS to emerge.”

“This simplistic notion,” he concluded, “that ‘leave Assad there because he’s a brutal killer, but he’s not as bad as what’s going to follow him,’ is a fundamental and simplistic and dangerous misunderstanding of the reality of the region.”
http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/12/03/marco_rubio_ted_cruz_debate_assad_at_republican_jewish_coalition_forum.html

[radon1]

O & Co don't care what Russians think of them, nor the Americans in general do. This is, so to speak, Russians' own problem. Therefore this is a pretty pointless thread. Better get over it and engage in something more productive than useless hatred. If unhappy with O&Co, do something about it, if unable to do anything about it, just discard the matter and go on.

[dissident]

O & Co don't care what Russians think of them, nor the Americans in general do. This is, so to speak, Russians' own problem. Therefore this is a pretty pointless thread. Better get over it and engage in something more productive than useless hatred. If unhappy with O&Co, do something about it, if unable to do anything about it, just discard the matter and go on.

Pseudo-philosophical babble. The NATO media and leaders, like the Reich of the 1930s, is painting Russians as subhumans who can be killed like one would kill rodents or insects. I guess back in 1939 you would be all about ignoring the Nazis and all their unnecessary hate since it would be pointless to worry about it.

[AgentR11]

Diss, I think you're oversensitive on this. NATO need do no such thing. Our forces could be facing a battalion of Mother Terresa's with wings sprouting and halos floating, and if the order were given, they'd wipe them off the face of the Earth without hesitation. I do think it is true enough that Western folks love to mock and make fun of Russians; and Russians have been our "designated enemy" for a bit over a hundred years now, with a few brief interludes for the sake of efficiency. However, don't mistake NATO with Ukraine idgits. They kill because of emotion, or revenge, or odd ideology. NATO forces kill because your existence contravenes a mission objective.

Basically, your guys are messing up our profits. Thus, your guys are in need of deleting. Unfortunately, Russia isn't Iraq and so deleting the defective object is a greater challenge, and may prove for the time being, to be impractical.

Of course, the day may come when we have space laser, super zapper missile defense that can kill thousands of targets in a short time span. Then we can just call up the Kremlin and say, "surrender now, or die." lol. and we'll be completely serious.

[SeaGypsy]

There's as much chance of an eventual BRICS alliance getting the ultrazap MAD NO MORE. Either way the point is moot, Russia can't just be deleted so tuff tiddies to NATO.

[Satori]

Russian Pilot Execution: What The Mainstream Media Doesn’t Want You To Know

http://anonhq.com/video-russian-pilot-e ... want-know/

"Tellingly, the “Commander” for the “moderate” “Turkman” fighters who shot at and killed one pilot in cold blood, was in fact the son of a former Turkish mayor… his name is Alpaslan “Celik” Steel, and he is a member of a violent TURKISH militant group with links to the Turkish MHP, an ideologically far-right party.

At best, this means that Turkey’s government had engineered the entire interview with the “Turkman commander” for its own propaganda purposes. At worst, a Turkish political party had arranged for the execution of the Russian pilots, thus committing a war crime, and NOT some random ISIS-inspired “moderate” rebel.

The “Commander” also falsely claimed to have killed both pilots, when one pilot had in fact managed to elude the “Turkmen”- foiling his plans."

[Sixstrings]

I do think it is true enough that Western folks love to mock and make fun of Russians;

Russia has a bad rap with a lot of its neighbors, but it's not all these other peoples' fault.

If real people living in villages in Poland, Estonia, Lithuania and Ukraine and even Sweden, have a bad opinion / genuine fear of Russia -- it's because of things Russia has done. Or specifically, Putin.

Russia is not some special place that everyone just has to bow down to. Russia is just another country, like any other country in the world, and there is an onus on Russia to IMPROVE relations and start making friends with its neighbors.

To get those people in villages in Poland to have a better opinion of Russia.

That's just the reality, folks. Let me give an analogy, with all this Trump stuff going on. *We actually have to be mindful of how our neighbors view us*, as well. Let's say Trump is prez and then he starts doing a lot of things pissing Mexicans off. Well guess what, Mexico may wind up hating us. It's not okay to just be a bully in the world. EVERYONE has an onus to get along well with their neighbors, and care about relations, you can't just be standing there all alone and all your neighbors are scared / pissed off and you're blaming all the neighbors -- but never looking in the mirror.

Russia has a responsibility, I'm just making an objective rational fact of the matter point of it, that Russia should try harder to be NICE and improve relations with all these countries. And it's gonna have to be NICE for a LONG TIME for attitudes to change in these neighboring countries.

The US is the superpower and Russia doesn't pick on us much, because it can't, but a lot of these smaller countries really do feel picked on / have fear of Russia. Only RUSSIA can turn that around, and a be a friend to people.

and Russians have been our "designated enemy" for a bit over a hundred years now,

That's not quite true. The West stood back and watched as they had a civil war, and the thing was horrible and went on so long, and then finally there was some attempt to help the czar versus the bolsheviks.

And then we had relations with the new USSR as well. It was American philantrhopists that singlehandedly SAVED the Russian people from famine. Lenin's men would come in and seize all the grain, leaving villagers with NOTHING. Just to starve. And then it was the American relief effort that had Russia divided up into districts to feed all the people.

I've posted about this before, it's an interesting historical quirk. The great Russian famine relief effort. Churches all over the USA contributed pennies and nickels and dimes. People were just reading about the famine in the newspapers, and they cared. Almost every Russian alive today, has America to thank -- because Lenin left their great grandparents NO FOOD.

America was always a bit skeptical of this "communism" over in Russia, but relations never turned bad until the USSR started pushing out and spreading it and became a real adversary post WWII and that's when NATO was formed.

However, don't mistake NATO with Ukraine idgits.

Ukrainians aren't "idgits." They are people. There's no difference between them and Russians, or Poles or Czechs.

All Ukrainian people wanted is to be a country in Europe and move up in the world. "Europe" isn't perfect, but the total package of it is what most Ukrainians would like to have. It's democracy, it's human rights, it's being European. It's the American Way. It's what they want and chose, versus dictatorship and a Putin-esque system.

Agent -- you can't tell Ukrainians that they should want to be like Russia, no matter however much you think they should want it, there's a lot of people in east Europe that just do not want it.

ON THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD --

I'm not being a jerk, this is just a rational objective point and I'd say it about my own country too -- Russia can't just complain that everyone is making Russia hate them. RUSSIA has to be NICE and make FRIENDS. Seriously. At some point it would help, if they'd start doing that, just be a nice and be a good neighbor and it may take a while but over time Russia could turn around the attitudes in east europe and elsewhere.

"Americans" actually don't have the deep-seated issues and fears and grievances about Russia, that its smaller nation neighbors do. And America forgives and forgets quickly. Russia actually has the most work to do regarding its smaller nations.

There's even a lot of people in the UK that don't like Russia. It's just things all added up, like Russian mafia stuff, and Russian bomber flights, and like back when Russia spread polonium around London to get a hit on that spy.

I don't even know what this thread is about. What's the point of it.

Is it saying, "you not liking us is making us hate you. The more you don't like us, the more things we are going to do to make you not like us even more."

[Sixstrings]

It's not about "Obama." It's not about "America."

America could just go away, and Russia would STILL have all these issues with all its other neighbors.

Seriously, like every single neighbor from Poland to Belarus to even Scandinavia now and the latest is Turkey. (I give Russia a pass on Turkey, they've got their own "Putin" in Erdogan so I blame the Turks too and turkey is pushing out trying to make a sphere of influence.. but you can't blame all the other neighbors, it can't be everyone in the world's fault except Russia).

How many times have I said it, that if a place can't even get along with Holland and Denmark and Scandinavians -- then something is wrong. *Anybody ought to be able to get along with Norwegians and Swedes*.

In neighbor after neighbor, Russia's got work to do, to improve relations and how people there think about Russia:

Poland to sue Russia over withholding 2010 plane crash wreckage

Poland will sue Russia in a human rights court over Moscow's withholding of the wreckage of a Polish jet that crashed in thick fog over Russia in 2010 killing the Polish president, the country's foreign minister-designate said.

Russia has so far declined to return wreckage, arguing it first needed to conclude its own inquiry.
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-poland-russia-smolensk-idUSKCN0SZ2B920151110#pPzQU63wigpF15cQ.97

See, look at that. When you look up Russia news, it's like nothing but constant sh*t with its neighbors.

Is there NOTHING Russia could do differently, to improve relations and make friends?

P.S. I'll state again though that Russia deserves credit for not escalating with Turkey.

But it's still just a lot of constant sh*t with all its neighbors -- you can't blame everyone, BUT Russia. Look at that plane crash thing with Poland. Why can't Moscow just be nice and give the wreckage back. Why must Russia constantly be adversarial with all of its neighbors. If anything they've actually got the best relations with the US, but with their other neighbors like Poland it's just constant things they do that upsets people in those countries.

[SeaGypsy]

Having seen footage of thousands of assassinations on people who by international law are protected as prisoners of war, by forces sponsored by KSA, USA, Turkey & in effect NATO compounded by the lack of any kind of accountability for these illegal mercenaries- all Russia has to do is play straight hands, Obama's team have saturated the arena with duplicity.

[Sixstrings]

Having seen footage of thousands of assassinations on people who by international law are protected as prisoners of war, by forces sponsored by KSA, USA, Turkey & in effect NATO compounded by the lack of any kind of accountability for these illegal mercenaries- all Russia has to do is play straight hands, Obama's team have saturated the arena with duplicity.

Well whatever SG, I'm talking about the opinions of people in various countries.

Russia has a very low approval rating:

Russia Receives Lowest Approval in World; U.S. Highest
http://www.gallup.com/poll/182795/russia-receives-lowest-approval-world-highest.aspx

It's just a lot of constant sqaubbles that Russia has going on with many neighbors, it's been going on a long time and everyone in east europe has long memories and Russians have long memories and Turks have long memories -- but none of that helps.

I'm just saying Russia should do some things to change the "bully" perception. Things like that Polish plain wreckage -- who the f*ck cares, just give it back to Poland. And don't get outraged when Poles take a statue down, etc. etc. etc.

Start doing things that are nice to Poland and guess what, relations would improve, that's how human relations go.

edit: this is not much different than politics. What if Jeb Bush just complained that "nobody likes him" and he only polls at 3%. He sort of did just that at one point, saying "well you know I have better things I could be doing anyway." Well see, Jeb Bush just complaining that people don't like him doesn't help anything. The onus is on HIM to change and win people over.

If a person wants to be liked more, if a group or organization or company or COUNTRY wants to be liked more, then they have got to EARN IT and start spreading some HONEY around rather than vinegar. Russia should be the one to give olive branches, and be consistent with it. Be the FIRST to make overtures, to improve relations and have a "reset."

[Theedrich]

Let's see: who has murdered more people? The U.S. (Afghanistan, Iraq #1 & #2, Libya, Syria ...) or Russia under Putin (Chechnya and some Ukrainians)? Oh right, the U.S. did it for righteous reasons ("American interests," and to spread "democracy"), whereas Russia is "evil."

[SeaGypsy]

TD, most people are stupid. Sometimes we need to remind ourselves to keep expectations of the general public set nice & low. Putin is anything but stupid. Obama's vendetta against Putin whilst simultaneously best mates with Erdogan- the most important sponsor of IS, whilst sponsoring jihadist 'uprisings' in several other countries & sending some of these from civilization to Somalianization- just leaves me stuttering at the MSM & general gullibility of the mostly dumbass public.

[Sixstrings]

Let's see: who has murdered more people? The U.S. (Afghanistan, Iraq #1 & #2, Libya, Syria ...) or Russia under Putin (Chechnya and some Ukrainians)? Oh right, the U.S. did it for righteous reasons ("American interests," and to spread "democracy"), whereas Russia is "evil."

I don't think that way, but the thing is, it's just that Putin has issues with his neighbors.

Why don't some people ever see that part of it.

Why can't some people empathize with Poles, and Swedes, and Lithuanians and Latvians and Estonians and all of Russia's neighbors -- and try to see things from their point of view, and what their grievances / fears are.

And why doesn't RUSSIA do that, more often?

That would help matters. It's a situation where there's a neighborhood and all the neighbors have a problem with one particular person in the neighborhood.

It can't be everyone else that's wrong, and only Russia is right. That's not rational.

I've got one foot on this Trump train now, but I'll tell ya something -- if he's the nominee and a year from now it's general election time, and for whatever reason Canada is all upset and Mexico's up in arms and David Cameron is upset and all our allies are worked up -- then maybe I cannot vote for him.

Because that would be like Russia, I don't want to vote for an America that's isolated in the world and all our neighbors have issues with us and disagree with us.

I don't think that'll happen with Trump, but I'm just sayin'.. I'll keep an eye on it, I won't vote for him if he somehow winds up pissing the whole world off.

The principle of being a good neighbor goes BOTH ways. If for some reason Canadians get all up in arms about us, then we should take a pause and look in the mirror and think about things. And that's what Russia should do, that's the situation Russia has with its neighbors, they've just got issues with like every neighbor they have.

[Sixstrings]

By the way, there's actually some positive news out regarding US-Russia cooperation on ISIS:

Syria: US-Russia plan to squeeze Isis finances
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/76731fec-a488-11e5-8218-6b8ff73aae15.html#axzz3uZt4c6Ks

[SeaGypsy]

It is some good news, but Turkey is a big problem. Erdogan is a disaster. Putin seems to have gotten through old Numbskull Kerry & managed a sensible dialogue. Good stuff.

I have Finnish ex girlfriend, Danish also, have been fairly aware of Baltic region issues for 30 years. I do know how they feel about Russia & you are right about it 6, but it is a dynamic situation & in flux as it has been since Russia became a country. Depending how Russia is run, how Putin, Lavrov & co manage things over the next few years, especially if a good relationship can develop between Russia & the USA- Russia's neighbors will have much less to fear & much more reason to engage positively.

I disagree completely on Russians being in any way natural enemies of the west. My reading of the history is that conflicts with Russia have been heavily manipulated by old money MIC blood cult folks for so long it is getting ridiculous & I thoroughly believe we have far more in common with Russians than with most other nationalities.

A true end to the cold war would be a huge plus for the west, for Russia, for the world. If the darkness of Salafism is what it takes to unite us, well that is a price to pay- but it is nothing compared to the prospect of MAD.