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When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 3

Unread postby kiwichick » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 12:13:12

@pstarr

for city dwellers and those with access to public transport, not using a private motor vehicle would be a good start

( which reminds of the joke; "What do you call 3 lawyers at the bottom of the sea?

Answer; " A good start " )
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 12:27:52

kiwichick wrote:@pstarr

for city dwellers and those with access to public transport, not using a private motor vehicle would be a good start

( which reminds of the joke; "What do you call 3 lawyers at the bottom of the sea?

Answer; " A good start " )
Okay that is fine and good, for the folks lucky enough to live in a healthy happy urban environment. For the rest not so easy.

A scenario: you are the brave suburbanite who gave up your car. Now you need a crucial bike part, and a wrench to install it, so you can ride to your doctor's appointment and save the baby. Can you get to the hardware store, the bike-repair shop by public transport?
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 13:08:25

dohboi wrote:Get rid of that top ~20% using ~70% of the 'earth,' and there's likely to be plenty of 'earth' left for the rest!


Dohboi,

I do have a hard time to understand after all you have read about our dilemma that you seriously believe this.

Wave your magic wand and get rid of those top 20% and you have a sink of 5.8 billion remaining out of which another top 20% will form in less than a generation.

Focusing on anything less than 100% of humanity in resolving our dilemma for this reason is inherently flawed. I am not denying that the top 20% have a steeper fall to eventually work out a balance but to assume there is something unique to these 20% is crazy. I have lived and worked in developing countries over half of my life and I would love to take you on a magic carpet ride and show you the lives of the privileged in developing countries.

Do you see the 80% not members of the privileged having chosen this destiny. Do you know nothing of their aspirations?
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 13:21:27

The point, as if it weren't blindingly obvious, once again, is that it is the consumption of the top that is at least as big a problem as is the sheer numbers at the bottom.

We have been convinced that absurdly high rates of consumption are somehow fundamental to our existence.

This has not been the understanding of most of those who have lived in most generations in the past.

Frugality in all things was the norm for all but the very few near the top, and even they often had pretty short term negative consequences of they overconsumed.

Even if by some other magic wand, we got rid of massive amounts of population, if the remaining population continue to think that ever expanding levels of consumption is their birthright and even the highest attainable moral good, we would quickly be back where we started.

Look, I know that it's all freakin' impossible at this point. You guys aren't going to wave a magic wand a reverse population growth in the next fleeting moments, and I am unlikely ( :) ) to suddenly convince much of the modern industrial consumerist society that their values took a wrong turn somewhere, and it is long past time to strive to consume the least amount reasonably possible, rather than the most.

But culture, by its very nature, is more quickly changeable than evolution and biology (unless one is speaking of some kind of general holocaust, of course.) So of the two impossibilities, mine is less utterly impossible on the time scales needed (close to immediately) than your population crash fantasies (unless you are dreaming of some kind of holocaust, in which case, I will have to part company with you for...other reasons :) ).
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 13:30:58

I happen to agree with Dohboi that rampant consumerism has been more destructive to the Earth than overpopulation. However, at the same time their is merit to what Ibon is saying about how modern man is fixated on modern lifestyles. Hypothetically, have someone try and live like say a Neolithic or Neanderthal Man for lets say a year and then as a rich country citizen for that same amount of time. The results would be pretty obvious almost everyone would chose to live a modern lifestyle. So this back and forth between overpopulation and over consumption is not particularly pertinent to anything in so much as both unchecked lead to negative consequences to the environment and thus the inhabitants of said environment. But yes Culture can be more amendable than Biology. Some would say though our inclination to consume and live like modern humans is inbred-biological given the opportunity to do so.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 13:49:57

"Hypothetically, have someone try and live like say a Neolithic or Neanderthal Man for lets say a year and then as a rich country citizen for that same amount of time. The results would be pretty obvious almost everyone would chose to live a modern lifestyle."

Perhaps, but note that most of those earlier cultures have been pretty well obliterated.

So people would have the disadvantages of not having conveniences, without the advantages of a culture that supports you in these efforts and that has vast stores of knowledge about what it takes physically, psychologically and socially to live that lifestyle.

But if you read accounts like those in De la démocratie en Amérique by de Tocqueville, you see many many examples of people who were living in 'civilized' Western lifestyles go over voluntarily to live with and like Native Americans once they got a taste of it.

The current consumerist lifestyle is the most Romanticized of any culture that ever existed on the earth, but it clearly does not lead inevitably to any kind of blissful happiness. The population that most of its advertisements are aimed at, at least in the US, that is whites, are the only population group whose mortality rates are actually going up, and that mostly because we are offing ourselves at greater numbers than any other group.

I'm just making a wild guess, but probably at least some of those sad blokes and blondes, if they had been offered a very different life away from the messages and other things that were making their lives so wretched, would probably have jumped a the chance.

Hell, lots of them volunteer for the army, where there is lots of deprivation, hardship and even death awaiting them.

In any case, one need not necessarily go all the way back to the neolithic to attain a lifestyle that, if replicated across the globe, would be sustainable. I heard an estimate a while back that the lifestyle of the average Parisian in about the '50s would be adequately low to be sustainable worldwide--that doesn't sound too terribly bad, does it?
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 15:45:27

This notion that there is rampant idle unnecessary over-consumption in the US has long been a myth. We already wrung a long time ago all the inefficiencies out of this system we could manage.

Yes relative to other places we use way way way more energy. But that use was baked into the cake 100 years ago. We have no choice but to overhaul of the entire damn thing. Ready for that kids? I tried. I failed. So stop lecturing me.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 16:28:59

But of course, the doughboy has the well known French cure for the elites in mind:
Image
Nowadays he will need a pretty big basket for all the heads and a pair of big brass cojones to use that cure.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 17:54:41

KJ, you know that dohboi is vegan? You have upset him and his heirs.

BTW: I also own a small two-wheeled tractor just like the Chinese gentleman in the pictures. Only I use mine for manure hauling, not manufacturing lol.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby Pops » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 18:16:28

pstarr wrote:... and his heirs.

LOL
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 19:11:45

Pstarr and Ibon,

You see the problem is Dohboi is a racist. He believes that the top 10% of consumers are genetically different from the rest and all we have to do is to while out their defective gene through genocide and all will be AOK.

the counter argument is that all humans are pretty much alike and will flow I to any niche that avails itself.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 19:30:33

"the top 10% of consumers are genetically different from the rest"

Wow, so you guys can't argue with any of my well supported position, so you just make shit up and attribute it to me.

Looks like communication has pretty well stopped at this point. You folks are getting too emotional and irrational about this. (Maybe the glimpse of those enormous boar balls had something to do with it? :lol: )

I'll check back later when y'all have had a chance to cool yourselves down a bit.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 19:39:14

Running again Dohboi?

You are soooooo predictable. When ever you get in a logical jam you cut and run, then start the same old argument over again on another thread.

You have no logical argument or you would make it.

Look, I don't like to get rough with you, we generally agree. But you make some assertions, this subject in particular that are just beyond the pale, and they have a certain "better than thow" tone that is inflammatory.

You should be prepared for rough responses when you go around sticking people in the eye.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 20:54:09

"no logical argument"

(No logical argument can counter pure emotionalism. Let me know when you have something worth debating to offer.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMzd40i8TfA
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 14 Dec 2015, 21:20:12

Newfie wrote:Pstarr and Ibon,

You see the problem is Dohboi is a racist. He believes that the top 10% of consumers are genetically different from the rest and all we have to do is to while out their defective gene through genocide and all will be AOK.

the counter argument is that all humans are pretty much alike and will flow I to any niche that avails itself.
In a way that makes sense. From dohboi's perspective those people would never take up the demand-slack if we corrupt Westerners saw the light and stopped wasting :-x . And just started dying lol. Those people would simply ignore the now-cheap resources, energy, products and services. They are noble and would listen to dohboi's sage advice. Anyway they'll be okay eating bugs and offal, as long as we eat brown rice lol
There's nothing deeper than love. In fairy tales, the princesses kiss the frogs, and the frogs become princes. In real life,the princesses kiss princes, and the princes turn into frogs

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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 15 Dec 2015, 13:57:10

For anyone interested in looking at some well researched articles on the subject of inequality, rather than just spouting their prejudices and hurling ad hominems, the Journal of Foreign Affairs dedicated their most recent volume to the subject: https://www.foreignaffairs.com/

Much of it is also accessible through their fb page with discussion: https://www.facebook.com/ForeignAffairs/?fref=nf
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby Cog » Tue 15 Dec 2015, 16:50:05

Eat beef.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 15 Dec 2015, 17:17:19

Thanks for stating your position so clearly and so succinctly, Cog.

It should certainly give some other posters pause that they are in bed on this issue with our Confederate-flag-waving friend, accurate, moral and COGent as he has proven to be on so many other issues they care about! :lol: :lol:
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 15 Dec 2015, 17:31:03

Dohboi wrote:

Get rid of that top ~20% using ~70% of the 'earth,' and there's likely to be plenty of 'earth' left for the rest!


This is not supporting the elimination of 1.4 billion people?

With the deep belief that the remaining folks would not fill their role?

How is this not promoting genocide? The elimination of folks based on a trait.

What does "Get rid of.." mean?

PREDICTION: You will make a useless snarky comment attempting to divert the discussion without addressing your own words OR you will remain silent, sulking away. Prove me wrong.
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Re: When will the mass dieoff begin? Pt. 2(merged)

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 15 Dec 2015, 22:01:08

We talk all the time around here about billions of people being wiped out one way or the other. But no one gets their panties in a knot unless one points out that--if that mayhem started at the top (where we are) rather than the bottom (where 'they' are) it would give the rest of humanity a much better chance to make it through--only then do people start to go ape sh!t.

Now I just wonder why that might be?

But for the metaphorically impaired, since the issue was consumption, the reference was clearly to getting rid of (at least most of) the consumption of the top 10-30%.

If someone has some maths that shows that this would not free up massive amounts of resources to help humanity and the rest of life get through the bottleneck we are clearly facing, I'd love to see it.

The rest is just the sad old immoral claim, "If I don't do it, somebody else will." The last resort of scoundrels and rapists...

Just telling the truth, truth that some here just can't seem to handle. Perhaps it cuts a bit too close to the bone for the apparently emotionally fragile fellows who populate these forums.

Don't murder the messengers, folks.

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