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When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 31 Jul 2017, 10:51:02

At this point I fully support finding more cheap oil, it certainly improves my standard of living.
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 31 Jul 2017, 12:27:40

ROCKMAN wrote:As a seller of petroleum I fully support your efforts. But you should try to drive more. LOL.

Yeah. Silly me, I decided to actually lower my carbon footprint once I understood the true in our face nature of the AGW threat. For me, less driving was actually easy. Being hot in summer, cold in winter, and giving up having lots of stuff I'd like to have -- those are tougher (but you can quickly adapt), even for someone raised to be frugal (for an American). I know that's not the American way, but it's my way. 8)

ROCKMAN wrote:BTW the excess consumption of petroleum by affluent Americans is a significant portion of the reason those needy folks need financial help given the resultant higher cost from our glutinous consumption. Also a shame those same needy folks aren't benefiting from the economic growth provided by all that ff consumption.

This is something I understand the liberal compulsion to keep saying. I'm just not sure I buy most of it.

1). So people have no personal responsibility at all? If they need, they should just take? (I'm not talking about parapalegics, I'm talking about most poor people, who frankly, are likely a hell of a lot more able-bodied than I am). And if people need, they just take, then why is, say, bank robbery frowned upon in our society? Why is rape for that matter? Surely there have to be lines drawn on the right to just take because people want something.

2). So is there no end of wealth redistribution to poor people in America that's enough? Given that the massively failed 50+ year liberal led "war on poverty" hasn't come remotely CLOSE to getting rid of relative poverty (that which liberals now focus on), let's say I'm less than confident that spending lots more gets to the root of the core problems (such as self control, discipline, work ethic, good decision making, etc.) Of course, neither side really wants to have programs that would get to THOSE issues of the poor -- political correctness forbids even talking about it. The GOP is considered evil by the left for even daring to state those things are part of the problem.

3). And what about the people you mentioned earlier, like the poor in India? Do you REALLY think that American money and Amercians burning less oil will somehow come remotely close to eliminating poverty in India? I just don't see it. Not without getting rid of the massive overbreeding problem, as a start -- and I don't see that happening either.
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 01 Aug 2017, 06:59:50

Eliminating poverty in India? No. But oil at $15 or $20 per bbl would improve the lives of billions around the planet, wouldn't it? Of course, only for so long as consumption would easily outpace reserve replacement. Which is the obvious benefit of the very uneven ability for different economies to handle higher oil prices.

IOW if folks have caught the subtle point: the ability of the US and other countries to grow at higher oil prices (and thus consume a disproportionate share of production) is what insures the continued development of that resource. A lesson confirmed by every failed communist/socialist govt. With Venezuela being the most recent example of how 25¢ per gallon motor fuel can destroy a country's economy.
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 01 Aug 2017, 18:27:46

ROCKMAN wrote:looker - Which is my point about my MADOR protocol: Mutually Assured Distribution Of Resources. Just like the MAD protocol of the potential nuclear war days. Those economies that have the financial ability to dominate the ff market will do just that. But it does not serve their mutual interest to battle (either financially or militarily) each other: like MAD there's really no winner. Those powerful economies will instead take an even larger portion of future energy resources...to the detriment of weaker economies. Just as it happens today...just as it always has.

One can judge that situation as unfair but short of a truly effective communistic designed global commerce how can it be otherwise? Those strong economies might try to offer some minimal assistance to the weaker. But the obligation of each govt is to conduct iitself primarily for the benefit of its citizens. In a democracy a govt will have to do so or suffer being replaced by its voters. Venezuela is a good example of that NOT HAPPENING.

But consider the current US export profile. And not focusing on oil exports which have never actually been banned. Those are relatively small compared to refinery products. Products made from almost 5 million bopd. A fact many Americans are unaware of. The US has become THE refinery for the world. Which is OK with the voters...today thanks to relatively low motor fuel prices.

But what when those prices double...or triple? Given such a potential political weapon it's difficult to imagine politicians not using a potential ban (or at least limits) of such exports. The same can be said for any country exporting products. Consider the top 5 countries that account for more then 40% of those exports:

United States: $64.1 billion (12.7% of total refined oil exports)
Russia: $46 billion (9.1%)
Netherlands: $37.4 billion (7.4%)
Singapore: $36.1 billion (7.2%)
India: $27 billion (5.3%)

Not only will those exports become political issues they'll also become potential leverage to use against importing nations. Consider the EU which has been losing refinery capacity for years. Folks can appreciate oil embargoes but I don't many have contemplated product embargoes...and which countries, like the US, that would have the upper hand in such a dynamic.

And here's an indication of how little anyone is paying attention to potential product embargoes compared to restrictions of oil imports: while there are dozens of compilations of oil imports by country on the web I could not find a single one for refinery products. IOW which are the top 5 importers? And how susceptible are they to future restricted US exports? Sure, one could search each country individually. But interesting that perhaps no one has thought that to be worthwhile. And not just the big importers are of interest: what about small countries that import 70% or more of the products the consume? Countries that product exporters, like the US, would see little value in supplying during a future crunch time.

BTW: In 2015 the UK’s reliance on imported oil products reached its highest level in 32 years as rising demand for fuels continued to outstrip what domestic refineries produce.


The catch is that these economies are controlled by corporations whose assets consist mostly of numbers in hard drives and whose goal is to increase them. Those numbers go up only if there is increased financial speculation and expansion of goods and services. Both increase only if weaker economies become stronger, and that's possible only if energy sources grow continuously and significantly.
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 01 Aug 2017, 18:34:04

But that is the point Ralfy, these growth trajectories cannot continue. Given that as the competition for limited resources continues it makes sense what Rockman is saying that the focus will be on eliminating competition and that means the lesser modern economies to just leave the most potent standing. Of course to me this is just rearranging chairs on the Titanic as the whole Industrial civilization endeavor is compromised from lack of cheap energy going forward and from overpopulation relative to resources.
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby AdamB » Tue 01 Aug 2017, 19:52:36

Subjectivist wrote:At this point I fully support finding more cheap oil, it certainly improves my standard of living.


As a consumer of oil, and not a producer, I wholeheartedly agree.

In response to the peak oil fear meme, industry went out and kicked butt. Huzzah's for them! Keep up the good work!
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 02 Aug 2017, 08:20:27

"As a consumer of oil, and not a producer..." First, there is (and never has been) "cheap" oil. There is economic and uneconomic oil. For the last couple of years the Rockman et al have been busting their asses looking for conventional oil shore oil prospects to drill. And $50/bbl is a good enough price to make such prospects economics...even if they have only 50,000 bbls of net recoverable reserves. That would be $2.5 million in revenue vs a $750,000 +/- total well cost.

The problem isn't the price of oil: it's the lack of prospects left to drill.
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 02 Aug 2017, 10:03:08

ROCKMAN wrote:"As a consumer of oil, and not a producer..." First, there is (and never has been) "cheap" oil.


Methinks a geologist speaketh incorrectly. "Cheap" is a relative term, and there most certainly has been a minima, in either real or nominal terms, of oil price. So yes, there has been a time of "cheap" oil.

Now, once we leave that minima, it gets all squishy. Because cheap to one person or group (in real or nominal terms) isn't necessarily cheap to another.

Rockman wrote:There is economic and uneconomic oil.


Makes more sense, particularly from a producers perspective. But this is just an extension of price, price being the determining factor on what is, or is not, economic.

Demonstrating once again that the only relevant measure of reserves and resources and estimates of that kind is a sliding scale similar to how the IEA quantified world resources back around 2009 or so. An idea that peakers can't do, because it demonstrates that their entire scheme of fitting random declines to production numbers is as silly as Shorty cherry picking his data to make his equations say what he wants them to say.

Rockman wrote: For the last couple of years the Rockman et al have been busting their asses looking for conventional oil shore oil prospects to drill. And $50/bbl is a good enough price to make such prospects economics...even if they have only 50,000 bbls of net recoverable reserves. That would be $2.5 million in revenue vs a $750,000 +/- total well cost.

The problem isn't the price of oil: it's the lack of prospects left to drill.


Specific to YOUR kind of development. Adam realizes that you are a specialist at this stage in your career, operating high up in the resource pyramid because that is the business model of your kind and generous corporate master.

The business model of someone else, even an NOC, sitting on top of the Orinoco extra-heavy, or Canadian tar sands, or HBP acreage on prime Wolfcamp or Spraberry acreage in the Permian, or any of the myriad types of possible development across the world, are not required to have your perspective. Development along the Gulf Coast, or even in the Permian, is just a small part of overall global oil production, and oil production is a globally fungible commodity, so it isn't a given, that the lack of prospects you face, are the same elsewhere.

Your very take on the topic is very similar to what folks in the Appalachian basin were saying decades ago, the majors famously claiming that "you couldn't put any acreage worth drilling back together up there if you tried", meaning that mineral rights were so subdivided you couldn't ever get even a drilling unit assembled.

Made perfect sense to stay away....until it turned into the largest natural gas producing area in the country because American E&P independents aren't the majors, and aren't required to listen to stodgy old gray hairs. After all, their was resource there, waiting to be turned into reserves, and their corporate masters have different thoughts on the topic than yours.

In either case, the game you play is fundamentally the same as the one everyone else plays, just at different levels, with different bank accounts, and different types of expertise. It was your industry that destroyed the credibility of peak oilers (again), and based on the sine wave theory of oil production, you can be expected to keep it going for more than a few peaks yet I'll bet.
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 02 Aug 2017, 15:31:39

Adam - So what is the price range of "cheap oil"?
From 1980 the price of oil dropped from $37.42/bbl to
$29.02/bbl in 1983. And at that lower price it still wasn't "cheap oil" as indicated by the fact that the world consumed 1.4 BILLION bbls less in 1983 then in 1980 when the price was 25% higher. Same thing happened in 2009 when the world consumed less $60/bbl oil then it consumed of much higher priced oil in 2008.

Also I think you missed my point: I was referring to exploration of conventional oil prospects. Developing resources that were known decades ago due to CURRENT HIGH oil prices is a very different dynamic. That's a RELATIVELY high oil price, of course. LOL.

"It was your industry that destroyed the credibility of peak oilers (again)." A different perspective: it was my industry that confirmed the credibility of peak oil: it took much higher oil prices to increase US oil production from resources that were known to contain recoverable oil decades ago. Had we seen US oil production surge with $35/bbl oil it would have given your perspective much more credibility. Or do you want to present a case that the US would have seen the same oil boom had oil stayed at $35/bbl?

Of course there's also the vastly different production profile of a well in a large conventional oil reservoir then that of a well in a fractured shale reservoir that has a much higher decline rate that also needs to be considered.
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby ralfy » Thu 03 Aug 2017, 06:35:12

onlooker wrote:But that is the point Ralfy, these growth trajectories cannot continue. Given that as the competition for limited resources continues it makes sense what Rockman is saying that the focus will be on eliminating competition and that means the lesser modern economies to just leave the most potent standing. Of course to me this is just rearranging chairs on the Titanic as the whole Industrial civilization endeavor is compromised from lack of cheap energy going forward and from overpopulation relative to resources.


Yes, that is my point: it's just like rearranging chairs on the Titanic. In contrast, the present global capitalist system (which allows for the existence of modern economies) requires not just continuous economic growth but even growing competition (to foster innovation). Both of these require cheap energy.

Thus, without cheap energy not just competition but even modern economies will fall apart.
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 03 Aug 2017, 07:20:15

"...it's just like rearranging chairs on the Titanic" I think a better analogy would be rearranging the life boat assignments on the Titanic: that determined who survived and who died. It might be difficult to envision but one day when global oil production drops 50% there may be some companies (my bet ExxonMobil and/or Shell Oil) could be making a very nice profit. Remember the Rockman made a huge ROR drilling NG wells iin the late 80's when prices were the lowest the had been in 15 years. Profitability is never determined by the price of oil/NG. It's determined by the difference between the price and what it cost to get it out the ground. For instance that first NG field I discovered in the 80's: sold it for $0.90/MCF but got it developed for a total of $0.12/MCF.

And oddly enough the big oil price drop is fermenting a significant modification of lifeboat seating assignments as the business undergoes perhaps the largest petroleum wealth transfer in history. And oddly enough some of the new seats are being taken by creditors including bankers. This is happening thru Chapter 11 bankruptcy settlement. For instance the former Halcon creditors now own 96% of the company and the former owners only 4% of its reserves. And in the case the drilling contractor Ocean Rig the former shareholders now own less the 1% of a fleet of modern DW drill rigs. Without contracts those rigs are not generating much revenue today. But when drilling picks up again they could be generating $BILLIONS in annual revenue. From bust to boom I've seen those rates go from $250k/day to $800k/day in 2-3 years. That can add $180 MILLION/year in revenue PER RIG.
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby baha » Thu 03 Aug 2017, 08:08:28

I see that as an indication of the diversification movement. No one wants to buy and own these assets so the banks are stuck with them. It may turn out ok for them, it may not.

I am hoping all the hopium and bad loans involved in the fracing industry will take down, not just the industry, but the stupid bankers who have no vision and just see dollar signs...Like I said, there are all going to be standing around with a stupid look on their faces wondering what happened.

I know, there is some hopium of my own in there :)
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 03 Aug 2017, 08:43:44

baha - "No one wants to buy and own these assets so the banks are stuck with them". Actually the banks et al aren't taking ownership of the reserves/operations. They are owning stock in those companies. And that stock can be sold at anytime they want to liquidate their position. The management/staff is still taking care of day to day operations. So it's no different then banks/hedge funds et al taking stock positions in other companies. Same situation with Halcon.

Consider how that's working out for the new stockholders of Ocean Rig: the price of their stock has doubled in the last 5 weeks since they received their positions. Granted that was because it jumped from 12¢/share to 24¢/share. But remember at its peak the company was selling for $18/share. So what happens if it increases to just $3/share in the next 2-3 years. Could easily happen if they start getting long term contracts for their rigs. Which is possible given they can be extremely competitive given they now have no debt to service every month. If that happens it will mean their stock would have increased about 16X from what it was worth when it was given to them.

So a 1,600% increase in value in just a few years if it goes to just $3/share in a few years.

BTW the Rockman is thinking about buying 1,000 shares of Ocean Rig...that would only cost $250. LOL
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 03 Aug 2017, 16:28:03

ROCKMAN wrote:Adam - So what is the price range of "cheap oil"?
From 1980 the price of oil dropped from $37.42/bbl to
$29.02/bbl in 1983. And at that lower price it still wasn't "cheap oil" as indicated by the fact that the world consumed 1.4 BILLION bbls less in 1983 then in 1980 when the price was 25% higher. Same thing happened in 2009 when the world consumed less $60/bbl oil then it consumed of much higher priced oil in 2008.


Because cheap oil is a relative concept, you can pick any reason you'd like to make it so, same as me. Hence its uselessness as a metric.

Rockman wrote:Also I think you missed my point: I was referring to exploration of conventional oil prospects.


Didn't miss your point at all. But you apparently missed mine, you left out a caveat in the statement above, to whit, "IN THE AREA YOU OPERATE IN". Which is, as I said, a small portion of the total area available for exploration or development.

And I am guessing as to the nature of this "conventional oil" you specialize in, could you perhaps PM me the chemical composition of this special type of oil, that I might compare to other kinds (hence, non-conventional) to determine what extra molecules, or there particular arrangement, are required to be this special subset of oil? LOL

Rockman wrote:"It was your industry that destroyed the credibility of peak oilers (again)." A different perspective: it was my industry that confirmed the credibility of peak oil: it took much higher oil prices to increase US oil production from resources that were known to contain recoverable oil decades ago.


Your industry is involved all over the place, indeed. LOL.

Rockman wrote:Had we seen US oil production surge with $35/bbl oil it would have given your perspective much more credibility. Or do you want to present a case that the US would have seen the same oil boom had oil stayed at $35/bbl?


I'm not one of the jughead peak oilers Rockman, I am quite familiar with oil company reactions to higher prices, both individually and in the aggregate.

Rockman wrote:Of course there's also the vastly different production profile of a well in a large conventional oil reservoir then that of a well in a fractured shale reservoir that has a much higher decline rate that also needs to be considered.


You consider it, I've done the SEC proven reserve reports on both. Nothing like putting your name on the report so the investors know who to crucify if you get this one wrong!
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 03 Aug 2017, 16:45:16

ROCKMAN wrote:From 1980 the price of oil dropped from $37.42/bbl to
$29.02/bbl in 1983. And at that lower price it still wasn't "cheap oil" as indicated by the fact that the world consumed 1.4 BILLION bbls less in 1983 then in 1980 when the price was 25% higher. Same thing happened in 2009 when the world consumed less $60/bbl oil then it consumed of much higher priced oil in 2008.

Oil usage is highly inelastic (i.e. it isn't impacted much by price changes, even big ones, in normal times.) This is something the vast majority of people don't seem to get.

People tend to consume the oil products they think they NEED. Their perception of need changes as fuel efficiency changes and their perceptions of the economy (i.e. economic confidence).

In 1983, vs 1979, fuel efficiency had just undergone a huge increase percentage wise. After the three big scary price spikes in the previous decade, no wonder. Just looking at how the US fleet fuel economy increased during that time (link follows) gives an indication of the scale. People burned less because they needed less, even though it was cheaper.

http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-an ... el-economy

In 2009, the global economy had shrunk, and the fear of a possible global DEPRESSION was huge. (I still remember how it felt, having retired less than 2 years prior and wondering how my timing could have been worse). In 2009 people burned less oil because they were afraid to spend money (a rare event, I know). This was in spite of the fact that oil in 2009 was DRAMATICALLY cheaper than it was in 2008, on average.

(I've seen the following chart a bunch of times on this site. Sorry for the long link, but copying/pasting it to a browser seems to work for me).

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... IQ9QEIKjAA
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby ralfy » Thu 03 Aug 2017, 22:32:51

ROCKMAN wrote:"...it's just like rearranging chairs on the Titanic" I think a better analogy would be rearranging the life boat assignments on the Titanic: that determined who survived and who died. It might be difficult to envision but one day when global oil production drops 50% there may be some companies (my bet ExxonMobil and/or Shell Oil) could be making a very nice profit. Remember the Rockman made a huge ROR drilling NG wells iin the late 80's when prices were the lowest the had been in 15 years. Profitability is never determined by the price of oil/NG. It's determined by the difference between the price and what it cost to get it out the ground. For instance that first NG field I discovered in the 80's: sold it for $0.90/MCF but got it developed for a total of $0.12/MCF.

And oddly enough the big oil price drop is fermenting a significant modification of lifeboat seating assignments as the business undergoes perhaps the largest petroleum wealth transfer in history. And oddly enough some of the new seats are being taken by creditors including bankers. This is happening thru Chapter 11 bankruptcy settlement. For instance the former Halcon creditors now own 96% of the company and the former owners only 4% of its reserves. And in the case the drilling contractor Ocean Rig the former shareholders now own less the 1% of a fleet of modern DW drill rigs. Without contracts those rigs are not generating much revenue today. But when drilling picks up again they could be generating $BILLIONS in annual revenue. From bust to boom I've seen those rates go from $250k/day to $800k/day in 2-3 years. That can add $180 MILLION/year in revenue PER RIG.


The difference, of course, is that in the Titanic analogy survivors generally found themselves in safe places where it was business as usual.
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby ralfy » Thu 03 Aug 2017, 22:39:19

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
ROCKMAN wrote:From 1980 the price of oil dropped from $37.42/bbl to
$29.02/bbl in 1983. And at that lower price it still wasn't "cheap oil" as indicated by the fact that the world consumed 1.4 BILLION bbls less in 1983 then in 1980 when the price was 25% higher. Same thing happened in 2009 when the world consumed less $60/bbl oil then it consumed of much higher priced oil in 2008.

Oil usage is highly inelastic (i.e. it isn't impacted much by price changes, even big ones, in normal times.) This is something the vast majority of people don't seem to get.

People tend to consume the oil products they think they NEED. Their perception of need changes as fuel efficiency changes and their perceptions of the economy (i.e. economic confidence).

In 1983, vs 1979, fuel efficiency had just undergone a huge increase percentage wise. After the three big scary price spikes in the previous decade, no wonder. Just looking at how the US fleet fuel economy increased during that time (link follows) gives an indication of the scale. People burned less because they needed less, even though it was cheaper.

http://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-an ... el-economy

In 2009, the global economy had shrunk, and the fear of a possible global DEPRESSION was huge. (I still remember how it felt, having retired less than 2 years prior and wondering how my timing could have been worse). In 2009 people burned less oil because they were afraid to spend money (a rare event, I know). This was in spite of the fact that oil in 2009 was DRAMATICALLY cheaper than it was in 2008, on average.

(I've seen the following chart a bunch of times on this site. Sorry for the long link, but copying/pasting it to a browser seems to work for me).

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=ht ... IQ9QEIKjAA


Consumption dropped for EU, the U.S., and Japan. For the rest of the world, consumption continued to rise, for both total consumption and per capita:

https://ourfiniteworld.com/2013/04/11/p ... e-problem/
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby kublikhan » Thu 03 Aug 2017, 23:12:41

ROCKMAN wrote:BTW the Rockman is thinking about buying 1,000 shares of Ocean Rig...that would only cost $250. LOL

Ocean Rig has recently published the results of its annual shareholder meeting. The shareholder meeting approved the increase in the company's authorized share capital to ONE TRILLION (1,000,000,000,000) common shares. As of December 31 2016, the company had roughly 161 million common shares with 78 million shares classified as treasury stock. Thus, the company may issue 6211 times more stock than it has now.

The takeaway for common Ocean Rig shareholders is that they will receive next to nothing in the upcoming restructuring. Shares of Ocean Rig have recently been flat around 25 cents per share, but even this looks optimistic given the looming dilution. Ocean Rig shares are not suited even for gambling at this point.
Ocean Rig May Issue Up To 1 Trillion Shares

Wow, 1 trillion new shares? GE only has around 9 billion shares. Did they already issue the new shares? If not, does that mean your $250 worth of stock will be diluted 6211 times? So your $250 turns into 40 cents?
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 04 Aug 2017, 00:15:19

"Shares of Ocean Rig have recently been flat around 25 cents per share, but even this looks optimistic given the looming dilution"

Flat??? If you had bought $100,000 of Ocean Rig stock on July 13, 2017 it would have been worth $200,000 on Aug 1, just 2 weeks later.

Otherwise interesting update. Including "Given the situation in the UDW market, the post-split Ocean Rig may see downside again, but then may ultimately become an attractive bet should oil prices increase and make deepwater drilling attractive again."

As always timing is the key: like making 100% profit in just 2 weeks, selling the stock and then buying more after the reverse split and when the company starts signing long term drilling contracts.
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Re: When a big & lasting oil shortage will happen .

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 04 Aug 2017, 00:40:11

ralfy - The difference, of course, is that in the Titanic analogy survivors generally found themselves in safe places where it was business as usual." Did you not see all the examples I gave of companies that once they cleared Chapter 11 "found themselves in safe places where it was business as usual."? In particular where the creditors ended up owning the company. Again consider Halcon: got rid of $billions in debt, got a $600 million line is asset based credit and is using that capex to drill big wells in the Permian Basin. IOW thanks to the federal bankruptcy law it is now a financially sound operation "carrying on business as usual."

Halcon creditors not only made it onto the lifeboats but got first class seating. LOL. Of course, the original shareholders were left on deck as the ship slipped beneath the waves.

Again folks should study the federal bankruptcy laws. Especially Cheaper 11: it is specifically designed to allow company in very bad financial condition to reorganize into companies that end up "in safe places where it was business as usual".

IOW the law is SPECIFICALLY written to allow severely damaged companies to prospers at the expense of the creditors or original owners. Essentially designed to allow those companies to not only survive but have the potential to prosper.
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