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What to DO - a modest proposal

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 17 Jul 2015, 08:34:31

At least a few of us here believe strongly the world is a mess and our BAU is pushing us to disaster, if not extinction.

What to do? If we do nothing then this is all rhetoric and conjecture, meaningless.

Not a great idea, a rumination perhaps, but this crowd funding thing got me thinking.

What if we did a crowd sourced open letter to TPTB to tell them to knock it off. To start showing some leadership on the problems we face.

I don't like all the various organizations that lobby, I don't think they are very effective for the money spent.

But a simple crowd sourced statement, a petition that could be signed and forwarded. Maybe a place on the Internet where we could each go and state our disgust with the situation.

"WE THE PEOPLE INDIVIDUALLY RECOGNIZE THE OBVIOUS CONSEQUENCES OF HUMANITY CONTINUING ON ITS ORESENT COURSE OF OVER COMSUMPTION AND RESOURCE DEPLETION WHICH IS FEEDING CLIMATE CHANGE AND PUTTING ALL OF EARTHS LIVING ORGANIAIMS AT WORK.

THE ISSUES FACING HUMANITY AND EARTH IN LARGE ARE EXTREAMLY DIFFICLUT. OUR LEADERSHIP HAS COLLECTIVELY IGNORED THE MOST PRESSING ISSUES AND FOCUSED INSTEAD UPON RETAINING THE BUISNESS AS USUAL MODEL WHILE LOOKING BUSY DEALING WITH LESSOR ISSUES. WHILE THE ISSUES ARE HARD YOU HAVE STOOD UP AS OUR LEADERS AND PROMISED TO HANDLE THESE PROBLEMS. YOU HAVE NOT.

THE BELOW SIGNED INDIVIDUALS, AND ALL FUTURE GENERATIONS, WILL HOLD YOU ACCOUTABLE FOR THE ULTIMATE OUTCOME.

DEAL WITH IT."

Just a suggested statement.

Is such a crowd sourced petition possible?
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 17 Jul 2015, 15:13:46

Don't all rush in at once now. :-D
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby Pops » Fri 17 Jul 2015, 15:38:28

"I'm gonna sit right down and write myself a letter..."

LoL, we need to address the letter to ourselves: we are the overconsumers, we are the resource depleters, we are the ones seeking business as usual — us, here on this site — we are the powers the be.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 17 Jul 2015, 16:10:58

A crowd sourced letter (i.e a petition) entreating the world's leaders to do something about climate change, overpopulation and resource depletion is a great idea.

Of course there are existing organizations already working on these problems. I'm a member of 350.org and you might consider coordinating your planned petition with them. 350.org will even help you organize a petition campaign ---- they've got a web page at their site where people and groups can put their petitions on line in order to publicize them.

Just go to: petition campaigns.350.org

CHEERS!
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Fri 17 Jul 2015, 18:31:03

Did you guys get the news a few days ago about a Netherlands Citizens group just successfully took the Gov to court over climate change targets?

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33253772
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby kanon » Sat 18 Jul 2015, 11:36:07

The judgment was unprecedented in Europe, and unexpected. It pushes the Dutch government to honour its commitment to cut emissions.
In terms of the practical implementation, the government has already agreed to close coal plants, increase the use of windmills and solar energy and drastically reduce gas extractions in the north of the country.
The court case puts pressure on the government to speed up the process in order to meet the targets and become more energy efficient within the next five years.
The judgment is legally binding, and based on "Tort Law" - a general and universal concept which essentially refers to a duty to refrain from causing harm.
. . . .
The Dutch government can appeal to a higher court and it is not clear yet how the ruling will be enforced.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33253772

If the top authority in society has the responsibility to protect the environment and it can be made to meet the responsibility, the precedent would truly be very important. Yet, in the USA and China it seems the top authority has the right to define its responsibilities according to its own desires. The American corporate oligarchy and Chinese communist party oligarchy are devoted to self aggrandizement and meet their "responsibilities" only in terms that promote these oligarchies. In other words, the highest goal is "economic growth" because the oligarchs benefit, while sustainability or environmental protection would actually impair the oligarch's power.

IMHO, hoping that a court decision will change the trend is actually a harmful diversion. I just don't see how it works without numerous prior changes in social institutions and expectations. In the case of the Netherlands, the inevitable sea level rise will practically eliminate the country netherlands map, so one can see why a court would rule in this way, despite it being an exercise in futility. In the USA and China however, the loss of numerous coastal cities, ruinous droughts and floods, and occasional deadly heat is probably not enough for existential concerns to overcome partisan interests.
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby kanon » Sat 18 Jul 2015, 11:53:19

Pops wrote:"I'm gonna sit right down and write myself a letter..."

LoL, we need to address the letter to ourselves: we are the overconsumers, we are the resource depleters, we are the ones seeking business as usual — us, here on this site — we are the powers the be.


I don't want to downplay personal responsibility, but it is just plain wrong to say that "we are the powers that be." How many freeways have you built? How many gallons of toxic waste have you injected into the water table? How many statutes/regulations have you written and enacted into law? Social and cultural behaviors are shaped and directed every day. We have a limited set of choices and for nearly everyone, your prescription is not a viable choice.

On the other hand, there is more that we could individually do. I like Newfie's idea insofar as it is a direct simple statement (after spelling corrections). For each of us, there is a responsibility to identify and change our own behaviors. Focus on a single concept to organize your thoughts. Yet, changing the partisan manipulation of government to continue BAU and environmental destruction is a different frame of action.
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby Pops » Sat 18 Jul 2015, 14:18:56

kanon wrote:I don't want to downplay personal responsibility, but it is just plain wrong to say that "we are the powers that be."

How many freeway miles have you driven?
How many thousands of end products of toxic processes have you purchased?

Every day you vote with your dollars and actions to perpetuate "TPTB". As long as you excuse yourself from any responsibility I'm pretty sure they are going to continue on their merry way.

Now if your letter was going to say you are dropping out of the system if it doesn't change (or are dropping out in any event), voluntarily going for a lower energy, lower consumption AND lower production lifestyle, and voting that way, AND you have a few million signatures on your petition, maybe that would gain some attention.

Newf's letter or any letter that does not have a bargaining chip attached means nothing—saying you aren't happy about the way the cake is baked (but are gonna continue eating it) really isn't much of a statement.
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby kanon » Sat 18 Jul 2015, 15:29:57

Pops wrote:Every day you vote with your dollars and actions to perpetuate "TPTB". As long as you excuse yourself from any responsibility I'm pretty sure they are going to continue on their merry way.

Newf's letter or any letter that does not have a bargaining chip attached means nothing—saying you aren't happy about the way the cake is baked (but are gonna continue eating it) really isn't much of a statement.


I have a bicycle, but I have to load it on the car and drive somewhere to ride safely, but I avoid driving as much as I can. I don't buy any GMO foods, no corn, soybeans, or processed items. I buy used whenever possible. It doesn't matter very much. I suppose I could become a martyr, but in fact that would not matter very much either.

Most people follow to where they are led, do what they are told or shown, and think what they have read or heard. In Public Opinion Lippman showed how people's perceptions of the wide world are a woefully incomplete pictograph of subjective impressions. These simplistic images are constantly manipulated by the media, largely because the media cannot accurately portray reality and has to present the advertiser's version in a way that suits the audience. The conscientious people who might actually know what to do are irrelevant compared to the masses.

The idea of a "bargaining chip" in terms of consumer choices is somewhat delusional. Of course consumers are told they matter and their choices are the priority, but any choice that is not on the menu is suppressed. Despite the growth of organic groceries and promotional greenwashing, I think the idea of consumers presenting an ultimatum or boycott to the corporate oligarchs is patently absurd.

If you want to act responsibly, I suggest the first item is to act in an effective way. So it is not only a matter of voting with dollars and actions, one has to vote with a ballot as well; one has to formulate clear ideas; campaign; be an activist.
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 18 Jul 2015, 15:54:10

" So it is not only a matter of voting with dollars and actions, one has to vote with a ballot as well..." Which is exactly what the American public has been doing all along and why the situation is as it is today. Or do you mean they should vote the way you would prescribe? Good luck with that wish. LOL.

Your personal efforts are fine and should be acknowledged. Unfortunately they have zero effect on the system. At least you can take some comfort from your actions. But that's all you get for your efforts.
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby Lore » Sat 18 Jul 2015, 16:02:59

ROCKMAN wrote:" So it is not only a matter of voting with dollars and actions, one has to vote with a ballot as well..." Which is exactly what the American public has been doing all along and why the situation is as it is today. Or do you mean they should vote the way you would prescribe? Good luck with that wish. LOL.

Your personal efforts are fine and should be acknowledged. Unfortunately they have zero effect on the system. At least you can take some comfort from your actions. But that's all you get for your efforts.


That is just a matter of time Rock. The public runs from pillar to post and it only takes a few events to change popular opinion 180.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby kanon » Sat 18 Jul 2015, 16:10:41

Voter participation has been in a steady decline Voting and Registration. Maybe Newfie's letter would help reverse the trend.
Image

(Wish I could resize the image) I don't want to go on about it, but gerrymandering, electronic balloting, campaign finance, and negative advertizing all have an adverse effect. In many elections less than 20% of registered voters make a majority of ballots cast. My policy is to vote for Green Party candidates.
Last edited by kanon on Sat 18 Jul 2015, 16:23:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby Pops » Sat 18 Jul 2015, 16:12:55

Common public opinion is pretty well just what has been laid out:

it is Their fault
why should I be a martyr?
doesn't matter anyway

dd I miss anything?
The legitimate object of government, is to do for a community of people, whatever they need to have done, but can not do, at all, or can not, so well do, for themselves -- in their separate, and individual capacities.
-- Abraham Lincoln, Fragment on Government (July 1, 1854)
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby Lore » Sat 18 Jul 2015, 16:23:58

When things get nasty, everyone wants to shout it from the roof tops. People have been coddled into this false sence of security. That is until things really start affecting them personally.

The U.S. citizenry was against getting involved in WWII as well until the Japanese bombed Perl Harbor. They were more than content to watch the conflict from afar.
The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life.
... Theodore Roosevelt
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 18 Jul 2015, 17:38:47

Perhaps my statement was too subtle, although I have seldom been condemned of that crime.

One should read it and wonder if they hear a street level rebellion in the offing.

Perhaps it requires some modification, beyond my poor spealing.
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby ralfy » Sat 18 Jul 2015, 23:32:46

Related:

"1992 World Scientists' Warning to Humanity"

http://www.ucsusa.org/about/1992-world-scientists.html
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 19 Jul 2015, 00:19:36

Pops wrote:Common public opinion is pretty well just what has been laid out:

it is Their fault
why should I be a martyr?
doesn't matter anyway

dd I miss anything?


It Can't Be Helped.

I think there are 4 categories (your fault, not my fault, nobody's fault, everybody's fault)

LOL now I have that old plaque my cousin had in his woodworking shop going through my mind,

This is a story about four people named Everybody, Somebody,

Anybody, and Nobody. There was an important job to be done and

Everybody was asked to do it. Everybody was sure Somebody would

do it. Anybody could have done it, but Nobody did it. Somebody

got angry about that, because it was Everybody's job. Everybody

thought Anybody could do it but Nobody realized that Everybody

wouldn't do it. It ended up that Everybody blamed Somebody when

Nobody did what Anybody could have done.
Alfred Tennyson wrote:We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby americandream » Sun 19 Jul 2015, 00:23:43

And a 5th one. Its a function of history.
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby Newfie » Sun 19 Jul 2015, 09:43:57

Apparently you are more likely to receive Good Samaritan help if only one person is around. If many folks are around, then receiving help is less likely. Everyone assumes Someone else will do it.

That is why I tried to write the statement as I did.

It is personal, and requires no further immediate action. It is simply stating a fact, "At some point the populace will get tired of the BS and bring out the pitch forks."

It's a way to tell the "leaders" off.

I don't like tying it to 350 or anything else.

Just as straight and simple as possible.

I just don't have the tools to do it.
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Re: What to DO - a modest proposal

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 20 Jul 2015, 09:03:30

Lore - "That is just a matter of time Rock. The public runs from pillar to post and it only takes a few events to change popular opinion 180." So true. But do I have to run down the very long list of all the terrible events associated with energy production/consumption and then ask if collectively there haven't been enough "events" to sway voter attitudes to more sane approaches what do you envision happening that will? Especially in the face of lower oil prices: the public will flock towards the alts? They'll buy less motor fuel? They build fewer homes? They'll stop having babies? They'll take fewer commercial airline flights? Etc.

The fossil fuel consumer public is happier about the energy situation today then they have been for about 10 years...what positive changes in attitudes are you expecting?
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