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What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 28 Sep 2017, 18:04:49

vtsnowedin wrote:Ghung's source was CNN (the Clinton news network) so it was a case of "Trust but verify" I had to go all the way to the GOP's house site but CNN and Ghung are indeed correct in that they are rolling personal exemptions into the higher standard deduction.


Check a little farther. The fact that the Trump tax proposal rolls the personal exemption into the much larger standard deduction, resulting in a nice tax cut, was never in question.

The fake news that CNN released (and Ghung posted here) is that Trump's proposal also ends the exemption for children. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

In fact, Trump's proposal INCREASES the tax exemption for children.

the-republicans-tax-blueprint-

trump-tax-plan-details-analysis

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Always watch out for Fake News from CNN---this time they are lying about the Trump tax plan

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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby GHung » Thu 28 Sep 2017, 18:18:20

Sorry, Plant. My wife just read this thread (she's been a tax professional most of her life) and she says you must be [what's that Honey?].... a delusional bi****.
She's usually quite agreeable but doesn't like amateurs much. She could go into great detail about what the say they are doing and what they are likely to do, and why much of it will never happen.

Edit: She just read the article (betting you didn't) and said the author came to reasonable conclusions, knowing what we know so far. The devil will be in the details, as always. That's why we need tax professionals.
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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 28 Sep 2017, 18:31:37

GHung wrote:Sorry, Plant. My wife just read this thread (she's been a tax professional most of her life) and she says you must be [what's that Honey?].... a delusional bi****..


Whats that Ghung? Your wife is a ".... a delusional bi****..

OK---if you say so. :)

---------------------------------------------------

Here's an unusual idea--- why not just discuss the topic instead of engaging in childish ad homs? :idea:

If the Trump tax cut actually ends the child tax credit as you and the "delusional bi****" and CNN claim, then why is all the media except CNN reporting that it EXPANDS the exemption.

For instance, the WaPo states: The plan calls for an expansion of the child tax credit, increasing its value .... and making it available to more income groups. The framework also proposes an additional $500 non-refundable credit for “non-child dependents.”

Trump-tax-breaks

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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby GHung » Thu 28 Sep 2017, 18:36:29

"Here's an unusual idea--- why not just discuss the topic instead of engaging in childish ad homs?"

I didn't say it, Planty. The tax professional did. And she's never childish.
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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 28 Sep 2017, 18:47:53

GHung wrote:[i]
I didn't say it, Planty. .


Why deny the obvious?

You posted an ad hom, Gungie.

Can we go back to discussing the subject now instead of your childish ad homs?

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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 28 Sep 2017, 19:05:15

kublikhan wrote:How about this radical idea: generate enough in taxes to pay for what we spend. This tax plan puts us further in the red. Everyone wants government services. But no one wants to pay for them. If you are cutting revenue, you need to cut outlays as well.

I second that, and add enthusiastic clapping sounds.

Both sides of the aisle cause deficit problems over time. They like to spend more than the voters want to pay in taxes. And overall, the voters like that, even while they claim they don't.

Two of the worst repeat actions in this area, IMO, are the GOP insistence, again and again that lowering tax rates doesn't increase deficits. Except that history seems to show that it strongly tends to, over time. And the democrats like to claim that increasing spending doesn't increase deficits (as long as the spending is in the form of their pet projects, of course). (Both sides claim their ideas are so great they override common sense, but at the end of the decades, math and the debt says to the tune of many $trillions, and counting, that they don't).

And this goes on and on and gets worse and worse, and we keep ELECTING the same clowns that behave like this.

I keep wanting some kind of unbreakable Graham-Rudmann law on steroids that forces automatic cuts of EVERYTHING if the clowns in the beltway won't do the job with honest CBO scored math (say, over a decade so they can deal with real financial emergencies like the 2008-2009 mess). If they anger everyone, and it threatens their re-election, then maybe that will bring about some adult fiscal decision making on the spending AND the taxing that is done.

Of course, since only a tiny fraction of people truly want to solve that problem, it hasn't any real chance of happening.

At least both sides can continue to blame each other in 3 to 5 decades when we look like Puerto Rico (the way we're going) and no one wants to loan us more money at remotely affordable interest rates. That will be SO helpful. :roll:
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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby Cog » Thu 28 Sep 2017, 19:09:23

vtsnowedin wrote:
Revi wrote:My opinion is that they are trying to figure out a way to mess with the middle class so that they can have more and we can have less. And they have hoodwinked the lower middle class into thinking that Our Dear Leader is looking out for them. Eliminating the estate tax is a particularly good way of keeping those who have a lot on top while the rest of us strivers continue to toil away on the bottom.

The estate tax on farmland is a major burden that often forces the sale of farms when the owner dies even if he has sons or grandsons who wish to continue. I do think capital gains taxes need to be paid on stocks when they are handed down and they should get rid of all these trust funds that are just a tax dodge.


You are talking about changing inheritance laws on brokerage accounts. Almost all brokerage firms require you to list a beneficiary or beneficiaries. Called transfer on death. These funds aren't part of the estate so they are not subject to taxation. Same deal with life insurance polices. Inherited IRA's do get taxed when you are required to take distributions. Trading accounts gets taxed throughout the life of the stockholder on realized capital gains(selling the stock) or on quarterly dividends. So you want the government to get yet another bite at the apple? For what possible reason?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with transferring wealth to your children by way of inheritence. You have already been taxed on this money repeatedly through your life anyway.
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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 28 Sep 2017, 19:19:23

This is all up in the air of course until they actually write the rules and pass the bill but people that are discussing the issue need to know the differences between exemptions, deductions and tax credits. The biggest difference is between tax credits and the other two. Exemptions and deductions just reduce your taxable income dollar for dollar. Tax credits on the other hand reduce the tax you owe (or increases your refund) times the tax bracket you are in. A $1000 /child tax credit if you are in the 12% tax bracket balances out $8,333 of income or if you are in the 25% just $4000 of income.
Also not all dependents are children under 17 that qualify for the credit. Want to pay full freight on your college students while they are party animals?
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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 28 Sep 2017, 19:26:34

GHung wrote:Edit: She just read the article (betting you didn't) and said the author came to reasonable conclusions, knowing what we know so far. The devil will be in the details, as always. That's why we need tax professionals.

I am having trouble reading Plant's articles he links to on this because they're behind paywalls or must-sign-up sites, and I'm not doing that.

However, the 9 page summary PDF of the plan being cited by numerous MSM news outlets specifically says the Child Tax Credit will be increased on page 4 under the [Individual Tax Rate Structure] heading. (The PDF I'm reading of that in the NYT isn't letting me copy/paste that for a direct quote, at least not easily).

So perhaps it's all just speculation, but I REALLY don't see where your wife is getting that the child tax credit is going away. I'm no tax expert (I pay someone for that expertise), but I can read, and I do question them on any matters that aren't highly technical if I don't understand them.

So if this is your wife's opinion because "everything is on the table" per some MSM articles, fine, but I don't think empty speculation should trump (no pun intended) actual bullet points in the actual tax proposal summary document, until something else is published by the people who vote on such bills that SAYS such bullet points are null and void. (Just my opinion).

I'm not taking sides here -- I'm just trying to figure out what is ACTUALLY IN the proposal (not just MSM opinions/commentary).
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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 28 Sep 2017, 19:33:27

Cog wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:.......

You are talking about changing inheritance laws on brokerage accounts. Almost all brokerage firms require you to list a beneficiary or beneficiaries. Called transfer on death. These funds aren't part of the estate so they are not subject to taxation. Same deal with life insurance polices. Inherited IRA's do get taxed when you are required to take distributions. Trading accounts gets taxed throughout the life of the stockholder on realized capital gains(selling the stock) or on quarterly dividends. So you want the government to get yet another bite at the apple? For what possible reason?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with transferring wealth to your children by way of inheritence. You have already been taxed on this money repeatedly through your life anyway.
I don't want to tax it again. I want to tax all of it one time regardless of how you have tried to protect it. There is a lot of value out there in stock portfolios that has come by way of stock splits and share price growth etc. that has never been "realized" by a stock sale. No one should be able to dispose of that in any way even to a charity or a trust fund without paying capital gains tax on it.
I personally would not have a tax rate higher then 25% for anybody, but I want the Bill Gates and Zuckerbergs of the world to pay that 25%.
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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 28 Sep 2017, 19:36:38

vtsnowedin wrote:One of my neighbors growing up had eleven children and never paid a dime in tax. Can't imagine they can make that one stick.
https://fairandsimple.gop/

OTOH, if overpopulation (and its side effects) are running amok and causing overshoot, AGW, etc, why should people irresponsibly have way more children than they can afford to properly take care of -- and be rewarded for that behavior by their fellow taxpayers?

This idea that every time someone says "poor me", when they systematically did clearly self-destructive things -- and that this automatically means taxpayers should bail them out no matter the cost, is a big part of why we're in the debt fix we're in, IMO.

That may be "mean", but it also faces the reality of math. And eventually, mother nature (through her natural laws) will force people to do the same. I'd prefer we be more proactive about that than, say, lemmings. After all, we're supposedly more intelligent.
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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 28 Sep 2017, 19:42:59

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:One of my neighbors growing up had eleven children and never paid a dime in tax. Can't imagine they can make that one stick.
https://fairandsimple.gop/

OTOH, if overpopulation (and its side effects) are running amok and causing overshoot, AGW, etc, why should people irresponsibly have way more children than they can afford to properly take care of -- and be rewarded for that behavior by their fellow taxpayers?

This idea that every time someone says "poor me", when they systematically did clearly self-destructive things -- and that this automatically means taxpayers should bail them out no matter the cost, is a big part of why we're in the debt fix we're in, IMO.

That may be "mean", but it also faces the reality of math. And eventually, mother nature (through her natural laws) will force people to do the same. I'd prefer we be more proactive about that than, say, lemmings. After all, we're supposedly more intelligent.

And I thought Cog and myself were the cruel cynics on this board. :wink:
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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby Cog » Thu 28 Sep 2017, 19:50:31

@Vt

I know who writes tax laws. The same people who have trillions invested in the market. There is no way they are going to make those inherited brokerage accounts subject to capital gains on death. The whole purpose of pay on death accounts is to avoid the blood- sucking lawyers who are involved in the probate process. Secondarily, you shield the inheritors from taking on a massive tax hit. You seriously want to wreck the stock market when so many depend on it for their pensions and income just so we can fund an overly bloated federal government? Find another way cause this way isn't happening nor should it.

While I was guardian over my father in the nursing home, I purposely made sure that most of his wealth would not be subject to probate or taxation. For myself and my wife, we intend to leave everything to to my daughter and zero will be subject to probate or government confiscators of wealth.
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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby GHung » Thu 28 Sep 2017, 19:54:03

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:One of my neighbors growing up had eleven children and never paid a dime in tax. Can't imagine they can make that one stick.
https://fairandsimple.gop/

OTOH, if overpopulation (and its side effects) are running amok and causing overshoot, AGW, etc, why should people irresponsibly have way more children than they can afford to properly take care of -- and be rewarded for that behavior by their fellow taxpayers?

This idea that every time someone says "poor me", when they systematically did clearly self-destructive things -- and that this automatically means taxpayers should bail them out no matter the cost, is a big part of why we're in the debt fix we're in, IMO.

That may be "mean", but it also faces the reality of math. And eventually, mother nature (through her natural laws) will force people to do the same. I'd prefer we be more proactive about that than, say, lemmings. After all, we're supposedly more intelligent.


Let them eat cake, eh? Somehow I think they won't just stop breeding and go find a better job.

Plenty of historical references for how the unwashed masses behave in a collapse. And there is no 'we'.
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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 28 Sep 2017, 20:02:18

Cog wrote:@Vt

I know who writes tax laws. The same people who have trillions invested in the market. There is no way they are going to make those inherited brokerage accounts subject to capital gains on death. The whole purpose of pay on death accounts is to avoid the blood- sucking lawyers who are involved in the probate process. Secondarily, you shield the inheritors from taking on a massive tax hit. You seriously want to wreck the stock market when so many depend on it for their pensions and income just so we can fund an overly bloated federal government? Find another way cause this way isn't happening nor should it.

Yes it will be extremely difficult getting fairness into the system.
Secondarily, you shield the inheritors from taking on a massive tax hit.
No they never take a tax hit. they only cash out losers where no capital gains are due. And if my way was adopted they would be all settled up when they took possession and only owe taxes on their gains after that date.
The bloated federal government is indeed a great problem but don't try to tell me the stock market would be in danger if they paid taxes at the same rate as the average Joe.
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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby Cog » Fri 29 Sep 2017, 05:09:43

Most of us in the private sector do not have government pensions or pensions of any kind. What we do have for retirement is IRA's and 401K's. Throughout our working lives we have contributed to those vehicles and have ridden out recessions and downturns and hope we have saved enough so we won't be living in cardboard boxes at the end of our lives.

Now you want the government to swoop in after someone has died, tax the hell out of their only retirement funds so the surviving widow or widower has to live in a cardboard box. Some compassionate conservative you are there. Inheritance laws and pay on death accounts are there for a very good purpose. So that the government and the legal system doesn't impoverish entire families at this critical juncture in their life.

You must not have any stock accounts or IRA's, because if you did you would know they get taxed when you take the money out. IRA's and 401k's are taxed when you take your distributions as ordinary income, so the government gets their cut. Ask me how I know.

I know a lot of progressives see those trillions in a stock market as only belonging to the super-wealthy and a ready source for government confiscation. The reality for many of us in the middle and upper middle class is that the stocks and bonds are the only thing keeping us from living in a cardboard box.
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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby EdwinSm » Fri 29 Sep 2017, 05:45:51

According to a BBC analysis it is probably very good for Trump....some loses (AMT proposals), more gains (as far as one can gather from the limited information published about his income).

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41423159
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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 29 Sep 2017, 06:18:37

Cog hold on there a minute. Where did I say anything about IRAs and 401Ks? And yes the wife and I have them and they have done quite poorly in my view.
If they cut the corporate rate to 20% the value of 401ks and IRAs should get a good bounce. And they certainly are taxed enough already. What I'm talking about is the millions and billions the very rich have in portfolios that have passed through generations only being taxed by the fees the tax lawyers and accountants skim off them.
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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby Cog » Fri 29 Sep 2017, 06:57:34

You seem to forget that all those bonds that pay interest and stocks that pay dividends are taxed each and every year from those very rich accounts. I'm not rich but I already have to pay taxes on dividends I receive from my trading account. The problem you have VT, is you see rich people as some sort of revenue machine to redistribute to the rest of us. I do not want their money and neither should you.

The mantra of the left never varies. "Let's stick it to the rich" is how they operate and always will.
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Re: What is your view of the tax cut proposal?

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 29 Sep 2017, 07:42:08

Cog wrote:You seem to forget that all those bonds that pay interest and stocks that pay dividends are taxed each and every year from those very rich accounts. I'm not rich but I already have to pay taxes on dividends I receive from my trading account. The problem you have VT, is you see rich people as some sort of revenue machine to redistribute to the rest of us. I do not want their money and neither should you.

The mantra of the left never varies. "Let's stick it to the rich" is how they operate and always will.
You are confusing me with Bernie Sanders. I am his complete opposite.
A lot of wealth is held in "growth stocks" that pay out no dividends so no taxes come due until shares are realized by selling them. They grow in value and often split and split again for decades. T bills are bought at a discount and don't actually send out any taxable interest checks and can be rolled over into a new T bill when they mature without settling up on the gain.
I don't want to stick it to the rich and think any tax rate higher then 25% is outright theft but at the same time I don't think a rich person should be able to withdraw a million from his portfolio and spend it on his lifestyle without paying any tax on it because all the stocks he sold to raise the million were losers while other growth stocks in that same portfolio gained three million that year.
Again I think we should tax "ALL income" one time at a fair rate and one time only without exception.
What is "Stick it to the rich " or liberal about that?
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