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What happened to flight MH17?

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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 13 Oct 2015, 15:33:10

The Dutch Report is out. It shows that MH17 was downed by a Russian missile fired from rebel-held territory.

dutch-report-will-say-what-downed-mh17

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Case closed---the Russian-backed separatists did it. :idea:
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby radon1 » Tue 13 Oct 2015, 15:49:28

Cog wrote:Russian apologists seem to be the mantra here.


Apologizing to whom? To you? Don't be so ridiculous.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby radon1 » Tue 13 Oct 2015, 15:55:51

Plantagenet wrote:The Dutch Report is out. It shows that MH17 was downed by a Russian missile fired from rebel-held territory.

dutch-report-will-say-what-downed-mh17


You fail again, the Dutch report does not show that the missile was fired from the rebel held territory. It does not specify who fired the missile, nor does it specify from whose territory it was launched. Did you read the article that you linked, at the very least?

But the findings left unresolved the central question of responsibility, which became even murkier this week with conflicting reports from the missile's manufacturer.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 13 Oct 2015, 16:20:40

radon1 wrote:the Dutch report does not show that the missile was fired from the rebel held territory.


Yes it does.

"The Dutch Safety Board said the plane was brought down by a missile fired from eastern Ukraine. Russia-backed separatists controlled that territory at the time. All 298 people aboard died."

buk-missile-downed-mh17

You fail again.

Cheers!
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby radon1 » Tue 13 Oct 2015, 16:52:38

Plantagenet wrote:

"The Dutch Safety Board said the plane was brought down by a missile fired from eastern Ukraine. Russia-backed separatists controlled that territory at the time. All 298 people aboard died."




Once again, for the dumber ones - the Dutch Report neither specifies from whose territory the missile was fired nor puts a blame on anyone. The confusing wording above is not from the Dutch report, it is from an obscure article written by an obscure reporter.

Also, the Dutch report is not the same as the Dutch Safety board. The report is a grouping of words, while the board is a group of some people who can obviously express a variety of views based on their personal opinions and preferences.

Now begone, failureman, see you in the O's section.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Tue 13 Oct 2015, 17:02:21

Cog wrote:Russian apologists seem to be the mantra here.


That seems a little strong. Its a collateral damage incident. We've killed an airliner in such a situation, Russia has done it, UA has done it, NAF has apparently done it.

It rates an "I'm sorry, and here's a check." Just like we did, as Russia did, and UA reluctantly did too.

Just like Kunduz. Not worse, not less bad. Just unfortunate.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby dissident » Tue 13 Oct 2015, 18:55:25

Plantard, read the report before masturbating in public.

There is a call for an investigation of who fired off the missile because the most likely origin points were in Kiev regime controlled territory around Torez.

Why did it take them this long to release a report with content that was known back in the summer of 2014? The timing of this release is suspect and indicates politics. The use of the term "Russian made" is obvious BS since they can't possibly know if it was from the USSR period or later.

Also, the video showing a Buk system transported "in a town near the Russian border" inside Ukraine are transparent misinterpretation. The video is a Kiev regime Buk on the periphery of Lugansk City when the regime still had control of the southern part of the of currently rebel held territory of Donetsk and Lugansk Oblasts. The Kiev regime paraded Buk system all over the place routinely:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGK1XvzOXEM

https://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2014/07/21 ... this-once/

Image

Supposed rebel Buk in Torez. But look at the "jeep" following it, you can see the top part of a white stripe on the
passenger door. But this is obviously from the Kiev regime army:

Image
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby dissident » Tue 13 Oct 2015, 21:30:39

pstarr wrote:No it is not a white stripe. Is is a stop sign post.


Look between the Stop sign and the sign post to the right of it.

Image

Image

Extract from a map produced by the SBU (Kiev regime) showing areas of control on the day in question. The hashing indicates "fuzzy control" so Torez and Snizhne were not under total control by any group.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Tue 13 Oct 2015, 21:35:06

Cog wrote:Russian apologists seem to be the mantra here.
There's quite a few Right Sector putsch apologists.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby dissident » Tue 13 Oct 2015, 22:40:06

Cog wrote:Russian apologists seem to be the mantra here.


Why don't you make your posts shorter to make the maximum possible contribution. You clearly have no intention of writing even a paragraph with content and instead to prefer to leave your little mouse droppings everywhere.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby dissident » Tue 13 Oct 2015, 22:45:15

sjn wrote:It's interesting that the manufacturer of the BUK system (Almaz-Antey) claims the shrapnel they were asked to identify belonged to a 9M38M1 BUK-M1 whilst the Dutch report says it was 9N314M. Critical point raised by Almaz-Antey in June (BBC News link) is that this would have been an older model no longer used by the Russian army but still in service in Ukraine. (edit: Almaz-Antey are apparently unhappy that their report on the shrapnel was ignored by the investigation)

Almaz-Antey today responded to the report:
From BBC live reporting wrote:Meanwhile the Russian state-sponsored television network, Russia Today, continues to release more details on the report by Russian missile manufacturers Almaz-Antey, contesting the findings of the Dutch report. This tweet shows an experiment conducted by the company with BUK missiles to prove their findings.

twitter: https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/653877872373841920



https://youtu.be/VREtudlZeHs

A 20 minute video of the Almaz-Antey test. The interesting part is right at the very end. I tried to look for linear patterns of equally spaced holes and could not find any. As expected the Buk missile fragments produce a random spread of shrapnel as the explosion is not perfectly symmetrical and there is turbulence associated with the expanding hot gases. Now look at the panel from MH17:

Image

There were eyewitnesses who observed fighter jets in the vicinity. I know that NATO media consumers never believe anything that is not told to them by their "free" media, but the above panel proves that the Buk missile fragments were not the only things hitting on that day.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby tita » Thu 15 Oct 2015, 05:15:51

And once again, various people contest conclusions from experts investigators with evidences in their hands (not photos from unknown sources). Belief is a strong power. One of the key evidence is the audio recordings from the black box, which didn't show any shooting before the explosion of the missile. So why talk again about this bullet bullshit.

It's interesting that the manufacturer of the BUK system (Almaz-Antey) claims the shrapnel they were asked to identify belonged to a 9M38M1 BUK-M1 whilst the Dutch report says it was 9N314M

No, they disagree between the type of missile. 9M38M1 only for Almaz-Antey, while the DSB is more evasive (9M38 or 9M38M1). Almaz-Antey dispute the 9N314M warhead, because of the lack of the bow-tie form in the fuselage. But shrapnels were found in the corpses of the pilots, with bow-tie shape. I think it is very confusing to understand the claims of the Almaz-Antey report.

The fact that Almaz-Antey presented a report the very same day of the DSB report is quite strange, and is another political move to place divergences in the head of the public opinion. And how can you compare the mythbuster-like "simulation" of the explosion, with a static missile and a static plane, again the reality (speed of missile and plane, probably both going in opposite directions)?

Now, they want further investigation to determine the exact location of the launch of the missile, pretending the report is politically biased. There is a lot at stakes, with powerful media backing.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby Sixstrings » Thu 15 Oct 2015, 05:37:34

Donald Trump says Russia isn't to blame for MH17, despite evidence

Washington (CNN)Donald Trump doesn't believe there is enough evidence to blame pro-Russian separatists for last year's downing of a commercial airliner over Ukraine -- despite the fact that the U.S. intelligence community believes "with confidence" that pro-Russian separatists shot it down.

"They say it wasn't them," he replied. "It may have been their weapon, but they didn't use it, they didn't fire it, they even said the other side fired it to blame them. I mean to be honest with you, you'll probably never know for sure."

Trump later said the culprit was "probably" Russia and pro-Russian fighters, but he said the U.S. needs to focus on its own problems right now and not "get involved" in overseas conflicts, even one as "horrible" as this.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/14/politics/donald-trump-mh17-plane-russians/


Russian mayor invites Donald Trump to Crimea

At least one Russian official is eager to extend an olive branch to an American -- the catch is that it's being proffered not to President Obama but to his would-be successor, Donald Trump.

The mayor of Yalta, the historic seaside city on the Crimean coast, has welcomed Trump's entry into the U.S presidential race. In a message posted on the city's official Web site, Mayor Andrey Rostenko hailed Trump as "an extraordinary person."

"We are following the elections process in your country with great interest," Rostenko wrote, addressing Trump, in a translation published by RT. "We like your election program and we like you as an extraordinary person."

Despite the climate of antipathy in the United States toward Russia and President Vladimir Putin, Rostenko sees in Trump an American willing to mend ties with the Kremlin. Trump has intimated that Putin is a man with whom he can do business, has celebrated Russia's bombing campaign in Syria and has framed the current tensions between Russia and the United States as a symptom of Obama's weakness.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/10/08/russian-mayor-invites-donald-trump-to-crimea/
Last edited by Sixstrings on Thu 15 Oct 2015, 06:32:27, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby radon1 » Thu 15 Oct 2015, 05:41:56

Almaz-Antey said they had requested to provide the serial numbers of the missile's parts so that they could track them, but got now response.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby sjn » Thu 15 Oct 2015, 07:19:58

tita, the problem is, any investigation is going to have political bias. People are biased. Any reasonable investigation, for that reason needs to be transparent, and it needs to address all available evidence. Including supposedly contradictory evidence such as eye-witness reports that don't fit the narrative. You can't just choose to dismiss data that doesn't support the pre-established story, and pre-identified culprits.

Again, what is needed is transparency. For example, the black box recordings, you state there's nothing to suggest any shooting before the explosion, I wonder what you would accept as positive evidence? Would it have taken the pilot saying: "we're taking fire from an Su-25?". Absence of proof isn't proof of absence. What most people critical of the secrecy wanted to hear, wasn't a transcript of the last few moments, but the dialogue between the aircraft and flight control during the transit of Kiev airspace.

With respect to the exact missile type and warhead, don't you see that it is extremely important to identify where the missile came from? If it was indeed an active Russian Army BUK system, as has been claimed, then it would have had to have been operated by either Russian crew or authorised separatists, with full operational target identification. If it was a Ukraine Army system then it would have had to either be operated by Keiv, again with full target identification, or was the captured partial system operated by separatists and was just an (un-)lucky hit.

I have no idea what happened that day. I followed events as they happened at the time, and have read quite a lot about it. I have my suspicions, which are evidently different to yours, but I would stop far short of claiming to know the truth, or claiming any particular line of evidence is bullshit. Appeals to authority, are just that. It isn't proof.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby AgentR11 » Thu 15 Oct 2015, 08:46:26

tita wrote:Now, they want further investigation to determine the exact location of the launch of the missile, pretending the report is politically biased. There is a lot at stakes, with powerful media backing.


This is actually what's the most sad. There is *NOT* a lot at stake. In the most likely case, captured UA, partial system, possible jury rigged launch; its collateral damage from someone with no money. Zero crime, zero recoverable liability.

In the alternate cases, UA complete or Russian complete, both parties had reason to believe military transports were flying and/or airdropping troops and local operators might not be convinced by a transponder ID, because all parties in this conflict are serial, compulsive liars and cheats. Presence of an SU25 could convince Rus operators that it was an escorted transport; presence of an SU25 could convince an incompetent UA crew that the SU25 was trying to kill a Russian troop transport. Thus again, collateral damage, zero crime involved, some civil liability on the order of about $100k per death plus the value of the plane. That's not really a lot in the overall picture of the Rus/UA conflict; and if its UA's they're bankrupt, so at best, you'd get a transfer from an EU fund, to UA, and then back to some EU families; while various UA oligarchs take their 80% cut. It'd be more efficient to just cut a check straight from the EU budget in that case.

This is only a big deal with "stakes" to the families who have suffered a loss, and the media parade that is selling tons of soap via this story. It has no high-stakes endgame for any of the belligerent parties.

My opinion on the alternate report timing, is that it was at the request of the Kremlin, and is basically immediate response which they should do MUCH MORE OF, not less. The more times they stay up at the front edge of the media story, the more times there will be information intersect of some data points, providing essentially confirmed pieces of information outside the media narrative.

The simultaneous release was not suspicious or in poor taste; what is suspicious and stupid is the usual Kremlin habit of getting way behind on a narrative and then throwing everything including the kitchen sink at it.
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby sjn » Thu 15 Oct 2015, 11:19:26

AgentR11, we may not agree on all things, but you are probably the most lucid, sane voice on these topics lately. 8)
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Re: What happened to flight MH17?

Unread postby dissident » Fri 16 Oct 2015, 17:04:26

http://www.kp.ru/daily/26446.4/3316776/

Almaz-Antey has exposed falsification in the MH17 Dutch report. A map of likely origin points for the Buk missile is attributed to Almaz-Antey which is patently not true.

According to Almaz-Antey the only plausible origin points for the missile are in the area of the village called Zaroshenskoye.

Image

The Dutch report claims the launch point was in the red hashed area. Almaz-Antey never supported such a solution. According to the missile characteristics, the MH17 trajectory and the damage, the missile had to have been launched from the south-west of Torez.

Almaz-Antey conducted physical tests to verify its calculations and the Dutch report pretends that these tests confirm their made up origin point map. The Dutch conducted no physical tests and have not proven their case with computer modeling either. The Dutch have access to Buk missiles from the Ukrainians.

Image

The aircraft damage is consistent with the lower panel (direction of Zaroshenskoye) above and not the upper panel (direction of Snezhnoye as in the Dutch and initial US claim).
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