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What does your car really cost you?

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 23 Feb 2017, 23:10:18

KaiserJeep wrote:The Chevy Bolt EV has been shipping for a few weeks now:

...

I was looking forward to this one, but color me disappointed. The seats in it are fairly narrow and pinched my butt. The interior is a mix of textured plastics that give a very contemporary feel. Overall, although it drove comfortably and competently, my impression was it was a first car for teenagers.

I've been watching various Bolt reviews on Youtube by "professional" car mag reviewers. The seats are objectively quite narrow. This was noted and measured by multiple reviewers. Apparently things like that and the level of interior plastics, etc. is largely about reduced weight (to increase the efficiency/range).

As batteries improve it should be easier for manufacturers to give more comfort, etc. and a decent range.

It will be interesting to see how the Tesla Model 3 compares IF it comes out this summer as Tesla is still claiming.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Thu 02 Mar 2017, 07:30:40

Just had the airbags changed on the Honda for free as part of a world wide recall.
While it was in I asked if they could look at my boot (trunk) lid
It doesnt close easily, if I use the lever by the drivers seat.
But no problems when I use the key remote.
They didnt have the part and they are busy for a few weeks so they gave me a quote
New Latch $300+ and $70 labour


I just watched 2 youtubes
One on replacing the spring on the latch and the other on how to remove the boot lining
Just ordered a box of assorted springs from China on ebay for $10 delivered.

The latch on ebay is about $60 delivered
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby Revi » Thu 02 Mar 2017, 10:22:51

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:The Chevy Bolt EV has been shipping for a few weeks now:

...

I was looking forward to this one, but color me disappointed. The seats in it are fairly narrow and pinched my butt. The interior is a mix of textured plastics that give a very contemporary feel. Overall, although it drove comfortably and competently, my impression was it was a first car for teenagers.

I've been watching various Bolt reviews on Youtube by "professional" car mag reviewers. The seats are objectively quite narrow. This was noted and measured by multiple reviewers. Apparently things like that and the level of interior plastics, etc. is largely about reduced weight (to increase the efficiency/range).

As batteries improve it should be easier for manufacturers to give more comfort, etc. and a decent range.


These electric cars are going to be different from the gasoline cars they replace. They're going to be more like small cars that you get around town in. The age of pushing 5000 pounds of steel around between cities are almost over. If you do the math you will see why. In most third world cities there were tiny three wheel taxis that worked off of a small motorcycle. They are like that.
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Thu 02 Mar 2017, 14:20:42

No, Revi, they are not like that. All 12 EVs in my list are fully compliant with the US FMVSS's and are highway capable vehicles. Very likely, the FMVSS will never be waived for mass produced cars.

I don't want to argue the +/- of the FMVSS. Every new safety standard saved lives on US roads. Every ounce of weight the FMVSS adds requires that the vehicle expend more energy getting around.

If you want to buy and drive one of the 3-wheeled motor-cycle based death traps sold in the USA, which are classed as motorcycles to avoid the FMVSS, and drive on roads filled with 2+ ton vehicles, feel free. Please fill out your organ donor card is all I ask.

US roads are not like any other country. The US vehicle fleet is not like any other country, and should not be.
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby Revi » Fri 03 Mar 2017, 10:17:59

This is a great discussion to get into Kaiser Jeep. We have had some kind of exceptional ability to burn up much more gasoline than the rest of the world, but it can't continue forever. The reason is that the system that has allowed us to burn as much gasoline as China uses for everything (including manufacturing) can't possibly continue forever. Using gasoline just to drive around is a huge waste of energy. That gasoline could be used to split wood, grind tortillas or for something that derives more energy than it uses. The fact that we set up an exceptional system doesn't mean that it won't end eventually. Or maybe I'm wrong and we can keep borrowing and spending to hold it up forever.
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby Revi » Fri 03 Mar 2017, 10:20:06

I am not saying that we should have some kind of eco-vehicle fleet in order to fix things. I am saying that we will be forced into some kind of a reduction in the amount of gas per capita and we will figure out other ways to get around.
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 03 Mar 2017, 13:41:23

If you want to set up gasoline and diesel rationing, go ahead. If enough people agree with you, it'll happen - and it will definitely stimulate the EV marketplace. Those who don't use any fuel - even if it's because they don't own a fuel-burning vehicle - would benefit from their own parsimony and the greed of others, by selling their fuel ration to other Americans.

But we NEED to drive two ton vehicles in traffic composed of two ton vehicles, for safety's sake. If somebody told me that I MUST buy and drive my two precious grandchildren around in a motorcycle deathtrap, I would take up arms and exterminate that person for their impudence. My Jeep Wrangler weighs 4535 pounds empty, gets 10mpg on a good day, and I burned 52 gallons of gas in 2016. It's not what you drive, it's how much you drive - my American-made Trek bicycle put on more miles than my Jeep.

Just stay the hell out of mandated vehicle design, please. Tweak the CAFE numbers if you must, but don't tell us what we must drive, or when and where we can or must drive it. Let people decide how to spend their own cash, it's the most fundamental of freedoms, and the most frequent target of Fascists. (I use Fascist in the most general sense, a Fascist being one who wishes to use the powers of government to alter other people's behaviors.)
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 03 Mar 2017, 21:51:20

Revi wrote:I am not saying that we should have some kind of eco-vehicle fleet in order to fix things. I am saying that we will be forced into some kind of a reduction in the amount of gas per capita and we will figure out other ways to get around.


Exactly as some of us already have?

No need for faux peak oil to get people thinking about their CO2 emissions as they commute hither and thither, some of us just do it because it is the right thing to do.
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby Revi » Sat 04 Mar 2017, 08:48:05

In order to maintain our present lifestyle we borrow about $8 a day each. That's about what it costs for the 3 gallons of petroleum we each use per day. I just took the 1 trillion we add to the deficit per year, divided it by 365 days and then divided it by the number of people (340 million) in the US.

What do you think about that?
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby Revi » Sat 04 Mar 2017, 08:58:13

We use the same amount of petroleum just for driving around in the US that China uses for everything, and they manufacture things.
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 04 Mar 2017, 11:42:18

Revi wrote:We use the same amount of petroleum just for driving around in the US that China uses for everything, and they manufacture things.


Don't worry, they are emulating our lifestyle, and will soon be using even more petroleum for frivolous purposes than do Americans.
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 04 Mar 2017, 11:55:09

Revi wrote:In order to maintain our present lifestyle we borrow about $8 a day each.


Yes, but WHAT we borrow for matters. Consumers aren't borrowing for our outrageously cheap gasoline, diesel and jet fuel, our government is borrowing to pay for benefits that those same consumers can't afford.

Revi wrote: That's about what it costs for the 3 gallons of petroleum we each use per day. I just took the 1 trillion we add to the deficit per year, divided it by 365 days and then divided it by the number of people (340 million) in the US.

What do you think about that?


I think you don't know what we borrow money for, in America.
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby AdamB » Sat 04 Mar 2017, 12:01:15

Revi wrote:We use the same amount of petroleum just for driving around in the US that China uses for everything, and they manufacture things.


The US manufactures as well. We are about the only real rival to China actually. You might not see it in the rural hinterlands where the labor, capital and resources are only capable of making lumber, I recommend some perspective expansion, in DC, Houston, or Silicon Valley.
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Mon 06 Mar 2017, 00:53:04

AdamB wrote:
Revi wrote:In order to maintain our present lifestyle we borrow about $8 a day each.


Yes, but WHAT we borrow for matters. Consumers aren't borrowing for our outrageously cheap gasoline, diesel and jet fuel, our government is borrowing to pay for benefits that those same consumers can't afford.

Revi wrote: That's about what it costs for the 3 gallons of petroleum we each use per day. I just took the 1 trillion we add to the deficit per year, divided it by 365 days and then divided it by the number of people (340 million) in the US.

What do you think about that?


I think you don't know what we borrow money for, in America.

Adam, I think he was just using a simple illustration to show (round numbers) the amount of money we're borrowing for government spending we want, but don't want to pay for. On that principle, I think he's on the money and that our constant deficit spending is stupid and short sighted.

Sadly, our politicians want to be re-elected more than standing up for what is right longer term, so here we are.
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby Revi » Mon 06 Mar 2017, 21:11:05

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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby Revi » Mon 06 Mar 2017, 21:14:06

The average person spends about $9000 a year on their car in the US. That's the total cost. That means if mom and dad and 2 kids have cars they are spending around $36,000 to keep everyone motoring. Very little money for anything else...
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby AdamB » Mon 06 Mar 2017, 23:15:29

Outcast_Searcher wrote:Adam, I think he was just using a simple illustration to show (round numbers) the amount of money we're borrowing for government spending we want, but don't want to pay for.


Maybe. Maybe not. Equating our borrowing with gasoline, as though that is what we are borrowing for, is obviously incorrect. Government spending is entirely a different issue, and has nothing to do with people borrowing for their gasoline. Or even more amusingly, those of us who don't even use gasoline, borrowing for our...utility bill...?

Outcast_Searcher wrote: On that principle, I think he's on the money and that our constant deficit spending is stupid and short sighted.


Oh on that point we all agree. But we haven't had a politician since Ross Perot who had any desire to tell the sheeple the truth on that topic. Telling Americans they need a hefty dose of austerity not being a way to get elected. As Trump has just demonstrated, throw out the right kind of red meat and you are good to go!

Outcast_Searcher wrote:Sadly, our politicians want to be re-elected more than standing up for what is right longer term, so here we are.


Yup. Drowning in debt because all the government knows how to do it spend more than it has, and drowning in oil because the industry doesn't know when to stop without crashing the price.
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 07 Mar 2017, 03:46:04

12×6×51=3672. 8×5×48=1920. 3672× $1= $3672 1920× $20= $38,400 (why Chinese don't & won't be driving anywhere near as much as Americans any time soon). Time & money.
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 07 Mar 2017, 07:22:34

Revi wrote:The average person spends about $9000 a year on their car in the US. That's the total cost. That means if mom and dad and 2 kids have cars they are spending around $36,000 to keep everyone motoring. Very little money for anything else...

I don't know anyone supporting four average cars on one income. Two teenage drivers had better have part time jobs or they are not driving 15K average a year and if they need to commute to work the job better pay well. Half time job 1000 hours a year at $12/ hr is $12,000 and some of that should be going towards college.
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Re: What does your car really cost you?

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 07 Mar 2017, 09:04:24

SeaGypsy wrote:12×6×51=3672. 8×5×48=1920. 3672× $1= $3672 1920× $20= $38,400 (why Chinese don't & won't be driving anywhere near as much as Americans any time soon). Time & money.


With four times the population of the USA it doesn't take a whole lot of driving from each Chinese person to make up for their lack of time.

The simple fact is China has been building private cars for internal consumption at a faster and faster rate every year. As of 2016 they were consuming roughly 50 percent more cars for their population than the USA, and all indications I have seen so far is they will match or exceed that rate in 2017.
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