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What are the limitations of solar energy?

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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 01 May 2017, 16:34:21

"What are the limitations of solar energy? You can't drive it around." That's true. But you can run a lot of f*cking industry with alt energy. Such as the commercial electricity users in Texas that consume more electricity then the commercial AND residential consumers COMBINED in 47 other states. Also contributes to Texas having lower rates then 40 other states.
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 01 May 2017, 17:32:03

ROCKMAN wrote:"What are the limitations of solar energy? You can't drive it around." That's true. But you can run a lot of f*cking industry with alt energy. Such as the commercial electricity users in Texas that consume more electricity then the commercial AND residential consumers COMBINED in 47 other states. Also contributes to Texas having lower rates then 40 other states.

But industry only operates on electricity at the very end point in a long chain of petroleum delivered feedstocks, labor, sub-assemblies and ingredients. Electricity is used largely for machining, parts assembly, that sort of thing.

Without the coal mines, aluminum and iron ore, rich deposits of copper, trans-ocean shipments of parts . . . nothing gets done. Not going to happen by EV truck or container ship. noooo
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby sunweb » Mon 01 May 2017, 18:07:08

Real industry.
Just making low iron plate glass (used in with solar panels) (or any glass) takes tremendous temperatures up to 1,575 °C (2,867 °F) plus the whole process from mining to install takes energy, resources and industrial infrastructure.
Glass (from sand, etcetera) takes 18-35MJ (5,000 to 9,700 watt-hours) to produce 1 kilogram.
http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/what-is- ... rials.html
A 4 x 8 sheet is 45 pounds
the process in making glass from the mining to the heating the sand to 2800° F to rolling it out, cutting and transporting. It also shows a huge factory and the global economies of scale required to make it affordable.

‪Float Glass Manufacturing ‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬‬
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJcHMmkjlA4
https://youtu.be/JJcHMmkjlA4
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 01 May 2017, 18:16:58

So sunweb, I take those kilns are not solar-powered?
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby baha » Mon 01 May 2017, 20:46:20

Interesting,
So a 4x8 sheet of glass is about 3 sq-meters and 20 Kgs. You could make three PV panels with that. 6.66 Kg of glass/panel. Use 7.5 kW as the average and each panel takes 50 kW-hrs to produce. A 315 watt panel can easily make 1 kW-hr/day so it takes 50 days for that panel to pay back the power invested in it. And it lasts for 30 years or 10920 days. So in it's lifetime a PV panel will make enough power to produce 219 more panels. All conservative numbers...I'm not accounting for silicon (more sand) or assembly but it's pretty clear solar can take care of itself. I don't know what they use to make float glass but I think an electric element will do...

I've always heard the argument of how PV is dependent on FFs but I've never worked the numbers. To think you can't develop electric mining and shipping processes is closed minded. I've said before I can build an electric 'buggy' today that runs purely on solar panels on the roof. But it would only do about 15 mph in full sun. Look at the solar race in Australia. One day you could park you car in the sun and it charges itself. Use a little imagination :) and try not be in such a damn hurry.
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The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby ralfy » Mon 01 May 2017, 22:19:53

I think solar panels, the components and infrastructure in which they depend to store and distribute electricity, and the consumer goods that use the electricity involve more than just glass.
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 01 May 2017, 22:27:04

"I've always heard the argument of how PV is dependent on FFs but I've never worked the numbers. To think you can't develop electric mining and shipping processes is closed minded."

There are no chargers in the ocean. Nor plugs in the outback.
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby Zarquon » Mon 01 May 2017, 23:07:12

ROCKMAN wrote:Z - And it looks like we're on the verge of proving the commerciallity of grid scale battery storage in Texas not only for wind but also solar. As you pointed out rooftop residential solar has a limited impact compared with commercial electricity consumption. If the intermittency problem with solar is in the process of being eliminated and solar continues to get cheaper we have the room to build hundreds of commercial scale solar fields on the hundreds of thousands of sun drenched and rather cheap scrub lands in south Texas. And with our $7 billion grid upgrade won't have a problem distributing power to commercial consumers across the state. Commercial consumers that useat least twice as much electricity as those in most states:

E.ON to build nearly 20 MW of battery storage at Texas wind farms

E.ON North America is installing two battery storage projects, totaling nearly 20 MW, at two of its wind farms in west Texas. The two Texas Waves energy storage projects, 9.9 MW each, will be sited at E.ON’s Pyron and Inadale wind farms. The lithium-ion battery arrays are slated to come online by the end of 2017.

Texas leads the nation in wind power, and it is now becoming a testing ground for energy storage ever since a Brattle Group report came out in 2014 that found up to 5 GW could be deployed on the state's grid. But deploying storage in Texas is difficult because the electricity market rules prevent using all the functions of a battery storage resource. However, that doesn't seem to deter some utilities. E.ON is adding two 9.9-MW storage facilities to its 249-MW Pyron wind farm in Hermliegh and its 197-MW Inadale wind farm near Roscoe. Both wind farms went online in 2009.

The Texas Waves projects are designed to provide ancillary services to the ERCOT market and to increase system reliability and efficiency by quickly responding to shifts in power demand.

{And others making advances: from a year ago} -

"North Carolina-based Duke Energy is converting a 36-megawatt battery system at its wind farm in West Texas from outdated lead-acid batteries to the more efficient lithium-ion variety, favored for electric vehicles.

Likewise, Virginia-based AES Corp. is teaming up with Texas transmission company Oncor to construct a 20-megawatt, lithium-ion battery project in Dallas to help maintain a steady flow of electricity as demand rises and falls. One megawatt can power about 200 typical Houston resi-dences during peak demand.

Battery storage is often called the "Holy Grail" for turning power grids green, because it could provide power during stretches when the wind isn't blowing or the sun isn't shining. "Storage is close in five years to being a potential game changer, but nobody (in Texas) was talking about it," said Don Clevenger, Oncor senior vice president for planning. "Storage really does address a lot of problems with one device. There's a real panacea of benefits."
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby jemsbond54 » Mon 01 May 2017, 23:35:22

DesuMaiden wrote:Anyone can tell me? Are Led solar light panels made of any rare earth minerals or other rare materials that are scarce and running out of? Are solar panels a reliable source of energy? Is it intermittent or constant? I just want to know if solar energy is a reliable source of energy.



Hello DesuMaiden,

Solar panels are a highly reliable device. The solar panel creates electric energy when photons, light particles are hitting its material and causing electrons(electric charge particles) to move. This movement is being transformed into electric power. In this process there are no mechanical parts moving, no friction and no loss of material. Therefore, solar panels can continue working for many years without maintenance, except for cleaning. For instance, many panel manufactures guarantee that 80% of the panels original efficiency will last for 25 years. One great example of solar panels usage at home (and SMEs) is Lumos smart solar system, itcan power lights, cellphones, fans, computers, TVs and other small electronic devices.
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby baha » Tue 02 May 2017, 04:18:31

pstarr wrote:There are no chargers in the ocean. Nor plugs in the outback.


Funny, both those places are just bathed in solar radiation. Panels aren't that heavy (I can carry one up a ladder :) Take some with you and charge on the road. Again it's all about how much energy you need or how fast you want to go? Between wind and solar ocean voyages can be easy, clean, and quiet. Just slow :)

An automated solar powered covered wagon that creeps along at walking speed would be just fine. Our FF'ed race to the edge of the cliff was a bad idea in the first place. Slow down, enjoy the ride, and connect with some folks along the way...

I just went thru a presentation by our preferred panel manufacturer REC. (The panels I have at my house) Field data shows a power degradation rate of .48%/year and a warranty return rate of .0028% That's 31 panels in a million that were replaced under warranty last year.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 02 May 2017, 05:26:06

baha - You might as well save your breath...some folks just can't accept the facts. And then there's the old "but you need ff to build the alt energy infrastructure" red herring. Well, what the f*ck do we use to drill oil/NG wells...unicorn farts? LOL. Obviously ff. Fossil fuels that are finite and depleting. Fossil fuels reserves we can extend by substituting alt energy sources. Yes: takes a variety of ff inputs to build the alt infrastructure. But most of the energy the economy runs on requires ff. So why pick on the alts as if that ff consumption is unique?

Again, Texas is a great example because we produce a lot of ff and alt energy. The logic isn't really that difficult to follow: every kWh we produce from wind/solar is a kWh we don't generate from burning a ff. The more alt kWh the less ff we use generating electricity. And the slower we use up the ff that are required to support the infrastructure the more we have to build all our infrastructure...including turbines and panels.

We won't need solar powered mining equipment, EV delivery trucks or any other electrified contraptions to build out the alt energy infrastructure if we have the fossil fuel available. And the more alt we substitute for ff the longer we preserve what fossil fuels we have left.

It's not rocket science: last month Texas produced 40% of its electricity from alt energy sources. Just for a short time but on average we're approaching 15%. IOW we generated more alt electricity during that period the most states consumed electricity in total from all sources. And if we didn't have the alts all that energy would have been made with fossil fuels.

Not bragging...just a fact: if Texas were a country we would be the 10th largest on the planet. Thus an economy that runs on a huge amount of Btu's. Btu's primarily from fossil fuels. Most understand how much ff energy produces but fewer realize how much we also consume. And a lot of that consumption is done not only producing ff but refining it into the products the rest of the country runs on: Texas produces almost 1/3 of all the products consumed in the US. Smaller states can go heavy into alt energy and it won't have a great impact nationally.

Not true for Texas. Our alt energy development is not only a big plus for us but the entire country.
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby Squilliam » Tue 02 May 2017, 05:53:42

@Rock: One thing people seem to underestimate about alts is that once you put them in you don't have to move them. If the sun is shining, or the wind is blowing, or the water is flowing through a place now then in 50-100 years you can pretty much expect the same energy will be there. Hell if your daughter was keen I'm sure those same squirrels you ate back in the day in college would probably still be easy prey for her. If things don't change you can just keep reaping the same rewards, and often once you have the infrastructure in place the second/third generation generation equipment gets even better rates of return because you don't need to rebuild the supporting infrastructure.
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 02 May 2017, 06:25:13

S - "Hell if your daughter was keen I'm sure those same squirrels you ate back in the day in college would probably still be easy prey for her." They are now but she won't eat them. Tried but it's that "It looks like a rat with a fluffy tail" thing. LOL. I still like squirrel better the most game. But she's OK with taking deer and turkey.

And even better: when school let's out for the summer I've got a solar project for her to work on. Just a small demonstration kit...probably just enough to charge her cell phone. But it's a start. Maybe she can eventually build a solar powered electric smoker.

Daddy luvs smoked turkey. LOL.
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby baha » Tue 02 May 2017, 07:00:08

ROCKMAN - It never ceases to amaze me how someone so tied into FFs can be so pro-alts. Talking to my Mom about solar was like pulling teeth. Using FFs to implement the alt economy is what a twenty year plan is all about. Maybe we still have time.

Let this be a lesson to all...people who live on two completely different sides of an issue can get along and agree on a direction. Nothing is black and white. Working together is more productive than pointing fingers.
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 02 May 2017, 10:57:26

Facts, RM? Don't bother me with no damn facts :x

baha wrote:"Funny, both those places are just bathed in solar radiation. Panels aren't that heavy (I can carry one up a ladder :) Take some with you and charge on the road. "

Sure baha can carry a panel up a ladder. baha can also carry the racks, frames, mounts, clamps, wiring up the damn ladder. :-x (this hurts) And then its two tons of hardware towed behind the Suburu Outback. Like Wagon Train lol RM, you remember that RM? The TV show. Back in the day.

Pa: "Let's have a kettle o' beans, Ma"
Ma: "Ware Pa, I'll just sit up this here PV up top of the Conestoga . . . and we'll cooks us up some dang beans. yee haw!"
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Tue 02 May 2017, 11:07:44

pstarr wrote:There are no chargers in the ocean. Nor plugs in the outback.

There weren't any anywhere, until we put them there. That argument doesn't make sense.
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 02 May 2017, 11:35:03

Hawkcreek wrote:
pstarr wrote:There are no chargers in the ocean. Nor plugs in the outback.

There weren't any anywhere, until we put them there. That argument doesn't make sense.

For a guy who doesn't drive an EV, your sure must know a lot about them, huh? Like how the Tesla heater doesn't work in the winter. Or how to run a long extension cord
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Tue 02 May 2017, 15:19:57

pstarr wrote:
Hawkcreek wrote:
pstarr wrote:There are no chargers in the ocean. Nor plugs in the outback.

There weren't any anywhere, until we put them there. That argument doesn't make sense.

For a guy who doesn't drive an EV, your sure must know a lot about them, huh? Like how the Tesla heater doesn't work in the winter. Or how to run a long extension cord

You don't have to know a lot about them to know that you can't drive one in the ocean. That's just foolishness! :P Don't even try that or you will get wet.
You still aren't making sense.
And I am pretty sure that Subaru will soon be making EV versions of its outback.
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 02 May 2017, 15:35:46

baha - "It never ceases to amaze me how someone so tied into FFs can be so pro-alts.". Who the f*ck would be more interested in the alts then an energy consumer who's been busting his f*cking ass for more the 4 f*cking decades looking for what oil and NG we have left. LOL.

Seriously. Maybe it's because so many folks have this totally f*cked up idea that everyone in the oil patch view renewables/alt energy as competition to us. We don't. Want proof: point to anywhere in the entire f*cking universe where someone is unable to sell every f*cking $ worth of his oil/NG. The price might vary but we still sell a lot of that f*cking sh*t. The world today is buying about as much or more every f*cking Btu of petroleum then ever before.

The only conversations I've ever had with anyone in the oil patch about f*cking solar panels is whether it made economic sense to buy some. And don't get me started on my thoughts about the govt swapping blood for f*cking oil. That really pisses my f*cking grunt ass off. And on top of all that I've got a 16 yo daughter who will have to deal with all this f*cking sh*t for the next half century plus.

F*ck! I sure say "f*ck" a lot. LOL. Maybe I should apologize. Hell, f*ck no. I've never apologized for how I make a f*cking living so why would I worry about my f*cking language.

Damn! That felt good just like a big bile movement -
feel all cleaned out now. LOL.
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Re: What are the limitations of solar energy?

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Tue 02 May 2017, 16:12:53

That was funny too, Rock.
I spent most of my life in and around the oil patch, and I like alts also. That is why I have lived off grid for the past 15 years.
And I say f**k a lot too. I blame it on the oil field trash I had to hang out with.
Even my grandkids laugh when I forget and let the F bomb fly. :)
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