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International Climate Negotiations Pt. 3

International Climate Negotiations Pt. 3

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 10 May 2018, 18:22:21

Well, I don’t know. If you consider that climate change will eventually kill most humans still alive it is a cure to the problem of over population by a rapacious critter.

It does not look like the rapacious critter will do anything of its own accord to abate it’s carnage.

Admittedly it’s looking pretty hard to find a silver lining.
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 10 May 2018, 23:23:11

dissident wrote:"Embracing climate change"?

That's like saying that one will adapt after leaping into the blast furnace. Clearly, the scope of the problem is not being appreciated by various people.


If it was only just various people. It is not. It is 99% of humanity that fails to appreciate the scope of the problem.

Which leads to the only logical conclusion to lean into the consequences as the solution.

That's like saying that one will adapt after leaping into the blast furnace.


You know the purpose of a blast furnace is to hone and harden steel right? Perhaps this is also how a new culture will be forged.

It is not like we are debating a choice is it?
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 11 May 2018, 07:34:49

That’s the hard part, accepting we have no choice.

I struggle with that, my brain gets it, my heart not so much.
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 11 May 2018, 14:55:05

Newfie wrote:That’s the hard part, accepting we have no choice.

I struggle with that, my brain gets it, my heart not so much.

+1
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 12 May 2018, 05:53:29

Newfie wrote:That’s the hard part, accepting we have no choice.

I struggle with that, my brain gets it, my heart not so much.


I used to struggle with that more. The heart can follow the mind as you set your trajectory to a deeper time perspective that will follow the decline of the invasive plague of humans on the planet.

The reason I embrace climate change as a solution is the role it will play in correcting human over population.

Before you start with the rebuttal how biodiversity will also suffer just remember that even before climate change consequences appear we have already altered more than 60% of terrestrial natural ecosystems converting them over to man made habitat along with our slave crops and livestock.

In other words, I am seeing this not from the damage that is coming due to climate change but from the correction to damage already done. Once the juggernaut of humanity recedes nature will recolonize former human habitat. I am reminded of this every time I look at a reforesting hillside rich in diversity here at Totumas that was pasture just 7 years ago.

Climate change as a wedge to disrupt the human juggernaut. That reality warms my heart.

If your heart's loyalty is to humans having a balanced place in our biosphere then embracing climate change as a solution to getting us there is not that far fetched.

Especially when you realize we don't have a choice any longer. As recently as 10 years ago my sentiments would have been considered deeply cynical since one could have argued that noble humans need to step up to the plate and do the right thing. But we all know that human agency has failed. We have made a collective choice to surrender our fate over to the consequences of our collective inaction.
Instead of pissing and moaning and getting depressed over this failure embrace it.
Last edited by Ibon on Sat 12 May 2018, 06:28:45, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 12 May 2018, 06:18:55

I hear ya Ibon, but having trouble letting go.

I may come in time, or not.
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 12 May 2018, 06:43:13

Newfie wrote:I hear ya Ibon, but having trouble letting go.

I may come in time, or not.


I know that many species will perish but I also know the deep deep reserves that mother nature holds. Humanity can not draw from these reserves, we used almost all of our reserves up and are skating on thin ice. Under that thin ice is a deep well of mother nature just waiting on the sidelines.

Another orientation for the heart. Where do you place your trust? In mother nature or in human civilization? Ultimately who rules?

KJ will say that human civilization is just a manifestation of mother nature and that this is a false dichotomy. My position is that our species chose to make this split, to create this false dichotomy since we do not use our technology to enhance our species resiliency and maintain a balanced place in the community of life. We have used our technology to become a rapacious global parasite.

I like the thin ice analogy....because climate change is melting it fast.
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 12 May 2018, 09:14:06

In summary, related to the consequences of our Overshoot we have opinions running the full spectrum. From we will fairly easily adapt albeit with some economic discontinuities and deleterious effects to human well being to we will become extinct. I get the impression that those who most ascribe to AGW are some of the same who believe it will be an extinction level event for humans. But,on this site we seem to concur that it is a moot point as our ability to affect the ultimate trajectory is now very limited.
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 12 May 2018, 10:07:18

...to fight...the unbeatable foe...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJkk8KP59Ac

But it sounds like most here would prefer:

https://dark-mountain.net/

I can see value in both approaches, and of course shortcomings, too...

Meanwhile, here's one of the more straightforward, non-reticent scientists, Kevin Anderson, on where we are (within a Swedish context here): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GShPnP29fbA

Further note: https://twitter.com/rarohde/status/988687041541099520

Most of the IPCC scenarios for limiting global warming to 2 °C assume that humanity will burn twice as much fossil fuel as the current carbon budget allows, but that unproven technologies for carbon capture and atmospheric removal eliminate the excess.
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 12 May 2018, 14:02:08

I think that is what is called a Ponzi.
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 12 May 2018, 14:31:29

I think it has been shown that even if this carbon capture technology can be revved up, it is prohibitivrly expensive. But what is worse, is the the net carbon elimination will probably be minimal due to CO2 production from that same process
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby ralfy » Sat 12 May 2018, 21:45:26

Ibon wrote:
I used to struggle with that more. The heart can follow the mind as you set your trajectory to a deeper time perspective that will follow the decline of the invasive plague of humans on the planet.

The reason I embrace climate change as a solution is the role it will play in correcting human over population.

Before you start with the rebuttal how biodiversity will also suffer just remember that even before climate change consequences appear we have already altered more than 60% of terrestrial natural ecosystems converting them over to man made habitat along with our slave crops and livestock.

In other words, I am seeing this not from the damage that is coming due to climate change but from the correction to damage already done. Once the juggernaut of humanity recedes nature will recolonize former human habitat. I am reminded of this every time I look at a reforesting hillside rich in diversity here at Totumas that was pasture just 7 years ago.

Climate change as a wedge to disrupt the human juggernaut. That reality warms my heart.

If your heart's loyalty is to humans having a balanced place in our biosphere then embracing climate change as a solution to getting us there is not that far fetched.

Especially when you realize we don't have a choice any longer. As recently as 10 years ago my sentiments would have been considered deeply cynical since one could have argued that noble humans need to step up to the plate and do the right thing. But we all know that human agency has failed. We have made a collective choice to surrender our fate over to the consequences of our collective inaction.
Instead of pissing and moaning and getting depressed over this failure embrace it.


Such a future is inevitable, but I get this feeling that most will not receive it with a "warm heart" because included with those who will be suffering and dying horribly are their loved ones, including the young. In which case, the desperate drive to survive will replace that "balanced place."
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 13 May 2018, 05:24:31

The only part about the consequences of CC that you have remaining to be absorbed is the single one about technology.

Human beings inhabit an incredible range of climates, using technology to shelter from the ambient temperatures. We live in the ice of the Arctic and Antarctic. We inhabit searing deserts, by moving underground and running A/C during the daytime temperatures.

In the worst case that is at all likely to occur, CC causes widespread death and destruction as the present heavily populated Temperate zones become Tropical and Sub-tropical. In this scenario, the SLR has flooded the coastlines, and the definition of "beachfront" is different, and a few decades of pounding by the surf are producing new stretches of sand from gravel and crumbling bedrock cliffs.

In the brutal Tropical heat and the Arctic temperatures both, electric heat pumps are moderating temperatures, without generating additonal atmosperic carbon dioxide. Our technology saves us. "Us" is after all, a variable number. Recall that the complete diversity of the human genome can be preserved in less than 3500 individuals. Recall that the Earth can absorb and heal from a certain number of humans indefinately, somewhere between the 1 billion or so that existed in 1800AD, to the 3 billion that Tanada estimates is possible with modern hybrid crops. Somewhere between the new searing Tropics and the new Arctic zones, humans will thrive. We simply do not know where the new habitable zones are, and how many humans will live there. That is the degree of uncertainty that exists, not whether we survive - we most assuredly will - but simply how many humans remain, and whether they preserve your particular genetic sample.

I am personally guessing that being located next to North America's Great Lakes, the largest fresh water supplies in the World, with water levels that are moderated and stabilized by the locks and other structures of the St. Lawrence Seaway system, will be helpful. If I'm wrong about that, perhaps my genes will not survive the CC to come, be it natural, man-caused, or both. I would speculate that others have made similar calculations, I believe Tanada for example, lives near Lake Erie.

The only thing you have to do, is make a plan and then implement it. So, make those plans, set yourself goals, and make them happen. Don't forget to double up on the electric heat pumps, for redundancy, and to have multiple sources of electric power.

If you do it correctly, your descendants will thrive. If you don't have any descendants, well, never mind, you lost the race already. So go ahead, post inflammatory and grandiose threads in this Forum, about how scr*wed we are. Spin the numbers to predict the time and place of Doom. It does not matter for YOU, after all.
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 13 May 2018, 06:24:26

ralfy wrote: but I get this feeling that most will not receive it with a "warm heart" because included with those who will be suffering and dying horribly are their loved ones, including the young. In which case, the desperate drive to survive will replace that "balanced place."


Perhaps it is worth considering that humans who lose loved ones and live with less certainty about a guaranteed long life usually end up being more humble than those who feel entitled to having a pain free life. There is more desperation with those who never lost a loved one, who never suffered.

Suffering over loss is a familiar emotion that our species evolved with for much of our uncertain past. All of this talk about desperation in dealing with upcoming hardships is really about the current spoiled crop of entitled humans who have not known suffering.

Suffering is an elixer and is good for the collective soul. Let's bring it on. It will deepen our life, make us more spiritual, rekindle deeper religious sentiments, make us humble, start to teach us our balanced place in the biosphere.

Paradoxically, the heart matures and is warmed when handling suffering. A life free of suffering hardens the heart.

STOP FEARING SUFFERING AND DEATH.
Last edited by Ibon on Sun 13 May 2018, 06:40:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 13 May 2018, 06:38:06

KaiserJeep wrote:If you do it correctly, your descendants will thrive. If you don't have any descendants, well, never mind, you lost the race already. So go ahead, post inflammatory and grandiose threads in this Forum, about how scr*wed we are. Spin the numbers to predict the time and place of Doom. It does not matter for YOU, after all.


All of us obsolete aging baby boomers do not have to really concern ourselves with strategic planning of climate change.

More importantly, I do not even recommend this for my own offspring who will most likely live to see increasing climate chaos.
I think strategic planning is mostly a coping mechanism because of fear one feels today in anticipation of an uncertain future that in the end will in most cases fail to actually increase your survival.

In times of deepening chaos those who focus on serving others and focus less on their personal survival often find themselves more integrated in communities that are under stress.

I see my daughters in the thick of it, in the chaotic soup of the consequences, persevering or perishing but not defensive. Kind of like the Joad family in the Grapes of Wrath.
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 3

Unread postby Tanada » Sun 13 May 2018, 09:25:24

To refer back to the previous section CLICK!
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 3

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 13 May 2018, 10:17:13

I think the fascinating aspect of a ;post Collapse world is how will humans react or act. Some say we will descend into total barbarism and life will be nothing but a fight for survival. Frankly, I do not know what exactly will happen but I like to think that we are capable of so much better. And that as Ibon says this era of Contraction and Chaos will bring out a inspiring sense of fraternity and caring among the survivors. That they will keenly understand that they must truly live in harmony with each other and with Nature. That they will develop a noble and altruistic mindset unlike any that our species has ever displayed precisely because they will be humbled as we have never been humbled before . They will go through the Fire and be purged of the nasty and negative emotions that have so plagued our species for so long.
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 3

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 13 May 2018, 14:10:11

onlooker wrote:I think the fascinating aspect of a ;post Collapse world is how will humans react or act. Some say we will descend into total barbarism and life will be nothing but a fight for survival. Frankly, I do not know what exactly will happen but I like to think that we are capable of so much better. And that as Ibon says this era of Contraction and Chaos will bring out a inspiring sense of fraternity and caring among the survivors. That they will keenly understand that they must truly live in harmony with each other and with Nature. That they will develop a noble and altruistic mindset unlike any that our species has ever displayed precisely because they will be humbled as we have never been humbled before . They will go through the Fire and be purged of the nasty and negative emotions that have so plagued our species for so long.


Onlooker, that we may emerge more noble is one possibility but under no circumstances do I see consequences purging us of our more base instincts. Abundance for an extended period has made our culture indolent and full of entitlement with a resultant loss of integrity as many are satiated with empty consumption entertainment. Increasing hardships and external challenges will purge us of this indolence but wont change the complex nature of human beings where selfishness and altruism is all wrapped up in the same cranial package.

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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby ralfy » Sun 13 May 2018, 21:00:13

Ibon wrote:Perhaps it is worth considering that humans who lose loved ones and live with less certainty about a guaranteed long life usually end up being more humble than those who feel entitled to having a pain free life. There is more desperation with those who never lost a loved one, who never suffered.

Suffering over loss is a familiar emotion that our species evolved with for much of our uncertain past. All of this talk about desperation in dealing with upcoming hardships is really about the current spoiled crop of entitled humans who have not known suffering.

Suffering is an elixer and is good for the collective soul. Let's bring it on. It will deepen our life, make us more spiritual, rekindle deeper religious sentiments, make us humble, start to teach us our balanced place in the biosphere.

Paradoxically, the heart matures and is warmed when handling suffering. A life free of suffering hardens the heart.

STOP FEARING SUFFERING AND DEATH.


You're referring to a middle class that seeks to live simply. They make up only a minority of the world population. I'm referring to the rest, who are poor, and what happens when societies fall apart. I'm sure you can figure out what happens next.
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Re: International Climate Negotiations Pt. 2 (merged)

Unread postby ralfy » Sun 13 May 2018, 21:02:48

Ibon wrote:
All of us obsolete aging baby boomers do not have to really concern ourselves with strategic planning of climate change.

More importantly, I do not even recommend this for my own offspring who will most likely live to see increasing climate chaos.
I think strategic planning is mostly a coping mechanism because of fear one feels today in anticipation of an uncertain future that in the end will in most cases fail to actually increase your survival.

In times of deepening chaos those who focus on serving others and focus less on their personal survival often find themselves more integrated in communities that are under stress.

I see my daughters in the thick of it, in the chaotic soup of the consequences, persevering or perishing but not defensive. Kind of like the Joad family in the Grapes of Wrath.


Integrating with communities is also a coping mechanism, not to mention a defensive move.
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