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THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 3

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 3

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 08 Dec 2016, 22:43:53

"...Petroleum is actually the result of Fischer-Tropsch processes taking place naturally inside the Earth at great depth". Sounds reasonable to the Rockman. Now we just need to keep looking for those abiotic oil and NG accumulations just like we have been since Col. Drake poked that first hole in 1859. Nothing changes in the game.
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Thu 08 Dec 2016, 23:15:27

Nothing changes in the game.


actually it does....dry holes increase, discovery rate goes to the lowest in a hundred years. The Russian's already tried this game....lets see....zero success rate. Pretty impressive. :roll:
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 08 Dec 2016, 23:22:48

Doc - "...actually it does....dry holes increase, discovery rate goes to the lowest in a hundred years."

Exactly what I said: the oil/NG development game doesn't change. LOL.
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sat 04 Feb 2017, 10:13:23

Once again more "expects" have pushed their way into our Peak Oil News section. So figured it would be worthwhile to pull up THE most important response the story drew:

H - "Even if true, can this process produce oil in the quantities currently extracted." And that's actually not the critical question. What's important is where the oil (abiotic or otherwise) has accumulated. Which is exactly how I shut the abiotic fanatics down: the 40+ year experienced petroleum geologist, the Rockman, believes all oil has an abiotic origin. End of debate. The problem facing the world is the increasing difficulty (and expense) of finding the yet discovered abiotic oil accumulations. Yes: the world is fast approaching PAO...Peak Abiotic Oil. LOL.

And refilling depleted fields? Obviously too slow in a human time frame. For instance:

bahamased - "So we should go back and re-drill Spindletop as it should be refilled by now". Guess what: the field is still producing. Not a lot but there are still wells completed in the reservoirs that began producing over 100 years ago. And guess what else: drilling in Spindletop field has never stopped. Granted not a lot of new wells but enough to find any new abiotic oil that might have migrated there since the discover of the field.

In fact, as recently as 2013: "Hard-hatted roughnecks returned to Spindletop this week, aiming to make another historic strike on the storied grounds. “This is one of the best Christmas presents I have ever had, getting this well spudded on the 22nd of December, 2013.” said Bud Tippens, a landman who has worked on the Southeast Texas project since 1999. Once that pipe reaches 10,000 feet a team of geologists will arrive to begin analyzing the findings to see if there really are deep undiscovered pockets of oil and gas at the Spindletop dome, site of the huge discovery in 1901 that transformed the oil industry and American life."

And guess who was one of those geologists? None other then your very own ROCKMAN!!! Yes, my company bought an interest in that well from Bud and was the operator. Unfortunately it was a dry hole...as was the sidetracked second well. And then Bud shifted south and drilled a 3rd dry hole. The Rockman passed on that one: two misses chasing those elusive remaing abiotic oil accumulations was enough. LOL.
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Abiogenic Petroleum: Peak Oil and “Fossil Fuels” – Debunked

Unread postby AdamB » Thu 16 Nov 2017, 18:27:10


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Abiogenic Petroleum: Peak Oil and “Fossil Fuels” – Debunked
Peak oil in 2020: And here is why: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b3ttqYDwF0
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 08 Jan 2018, 19:25:07

It's our nature to sort, divide, and classify. We label ourselves to identify political leanings, religious beliefs, the food we enjoy, and the sports teams we cheer. The oil industry too has its own distinct labels which include the "Peak Oil" theorists, those who believe the world is fast depleting the finite supply of fossil fuel; and the pragmatists, those who recognize that engineering and technological advances in oil drilling and extraction continuously identify new reserves that make oil plentiful.

And there's a third group you may not know. These people are deeply interested in oil and its origins, but their advocacy of "abiotic theory" has many dismissing them as heretics, frauds, or idealists. They hold that oil can be derived from hydrocarbons that existed eons ago in massive pools deep within the earth's core. That source of hydrocarbons seeps up through the earth's layers and slowly replenishes oil sources. In other words, it turns the fossil-fuel paradigm upside down.

Perhaps the breakthrough for this theory came when Chris Cooper's story appeared April 16, 1999, in The Wall Street Journal about an oil field called Eugene Island. Here's an excerpt:

Production at the oil field, deep in the Gulf of Mexico off the coast of Louisiana, was supposed to have declined years ago. And for a while, it behaved like any normal field: Following its 1973 discovery, Eugene Island 330's output peaked at about 15,000 barrels a day. By 1989, production had slowed to about 4,000 barrels a day.

Then suddenly—some say almost inexplicably—Eugene Island's fortunes reversed. The field, operated by PennzEnergy Co., is now producing 13,000 barrels a day, and probable reserves have rocketed to more than 400 million barrels from 60 million. Stranger still, scientists studying the field say the crude coming out of the pipe is of a geological age quite different from the oil that gushed 10 years ago.

According to Cooper,Thomas Gold, a respected astronomer and professor emeritus at Cornell University in Ithaca, NY, has held for years that oil is actually a renewable, primordial syrup continually manufactured by the Earth under ultrahot conditions and tremendous pressures. As this substance migrates toward the surface, it is attacked by bacteria, making it appear to have an organic origin dating back to the dinosaurs, he says.

All of which has led some scientists to a radical theory: Eugene Island is rapidly refilling itself, perhaps from some continuous source miles below the Earth's surface. That, they say, raises the tantalizing possibility that oil may not be the limited resource it is assumed to be.

More recently, Forbes presented a similar discussion. In 2008 it reported a group of Russian and Ukrainian scientists say that oil and gas don't come from fossils; they're synthesized deep within the earth's mantle by heat, pressure, and other purely chemical means, before gradually rising to the surface. Under the so-called abiotic theory of oil, finding all the energy we need is just a matter of looking beyond the traditional basins where fossils might have accumulated.

The idea that oil comes from fossils "is a myth" that needs changing according to petroleum engineer Vladimir Kutcherov, speaking at the Royal Institute of Technology in Sweden. "All kinds of rocks could have oil and gas deposits."
Alexander Kitchka of the Ukrainian National Academy of Sciences estimates that 60 percent of the content of all oil is abiotic in origin and not from fossil fuels. He says companies should drill deeper to find it.

Is abiotic theory the real deal? Is Eugene Island "Exhibit A?" Look how long it's taken for this conversation to reach a tipping point!


https://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/on ... -exploring
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 09 Jan 2018, 15:31:15

This is a topic we have pounded for a long time, I am saddened that the general media still thinks it is a viable topic of conversation.
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby GHung » Tue 09 Jan 2018, 15:43:59

Tanada wrote:This is a topic we have pounded for a long time, I am saddened that the general media still thinks it is a viable topic of conversation.


Uh,,, the media from Sept. 14, 2011 ?

Another oldie from Sub's Wayback Machine. Not sure why.
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 09 Jan 2018, 15:56:47

GHung wrote:
Tanada wrote:This is a topic we have pounded for a long time, I am saddened that the general media still thinks it is a viable topic of conversation.


Uh,,, the media from Sept. 14, 2011 ?

Another oldie from Sub's Wayback Machine. Not sure why.


While that article is indeed older I did a quick google news search and there have been a least a half dozen mentions of abiotic oil in the last 12 months. I didn't quote or link any of them because they are all basically the same, either abiotic oil is the real source of all petroleum theories, or abiotic oil is refilling the reservoirs and that is why Saudi Arabia will never run out of oil to sell us or a couple actually saying the 'unproved theory' of abiotic oil which can still leave people with the impression it is like Global Warming and only science deniers don't believe in it.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 10 Jan 2018, 17:23:56

Eugene Island 330 Field was studied and explained by real scientists (geologists and engineers) long ago. The increased production was due to the shallower reservoirs being recharged by oil leaking up fault planes from slightly deeper reservoirs. Complex explanations but the short answer: as shallow reservoirs decreased in pressure it caused a flow potential was created due to higher pressures in deeper reservoirs.

Very complex situation way beyond bumper sticker mentalities. Here's enough data to dull any mind here: http://www.geo.cornell.edu/geology/easr ... 0paper.pdf

BTW the Rockman was part of the team that worked on EI 330 in the mid 70's. No well drilled every came in it was projected to. But every well was a keeper.
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby Subjectivist » Sat 13 Jan 2018, 17:45:00

Actually I saw an interview with this petroleum geologist and it got me wondering again so I did a news search.
Professor V.A. Krayushkin, head of the Department of Petroleum Exploration in the Institute of Geological Sciences of the Ukrainian Academy of Sciences in Kiev.


However when I did the news search the first thing that came up was the article I posted above. I misread the date and thought it said 2017 not 2011.

This article is from 2016 so clearly the theory is still currently discussed in some quarters of the world.

Since about the 1880’s, Western geologists have promoted the unproven idea that oil and gas–hydrocarbons–are scarce on this planet. That idea of scarcity of new finds, combined with the idea of depletion of old fields, appears to make empirical sense amid reports of old oil fields going dry. After all, Western geologists argue, oil is a fossil fuel, derived from organic material–dead dinosaur detritus, tree leaves, algae. And the volume of that biological detritus from some two hundred thirty million years ago is clearly finite. The only problem is that reality has now been proved to be quite the opposite of petroleum scarcity. That’s very good news, or should be, because it means that the cause for more than a century of wars, fight for scarce oil, is unnecessary.

An elite, cross-disciplinary team of Russian and Ukrainian scientists (in those days it was one Soviet Union) were given the mandate by Stalin in the early 1950’s to make the USSR during the Cold War totally independent of Western oil imports for her economy. What the brilliant Russians scientists discovered was that oil, far from being biological in genesis, was abiotic. Moreover, they posited, and later proved that it was being continuously newly generated deep in the Earth’s mantle and pushed to the surface or as close to it as the subsurface geology allowed. The Earth’s dynamic core was one huge radioactive oven that constantly created new hydrocarbons–oil, gas, coal, even diamonds, another rare hydrocarbon.


https://journal-neo.org/2016/03/05/need ... -over-oil/
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby dissident » Sun 14 Jan 2018, 16:25:16

Stalin era Soviet science was the next best thing to voodoo. Consider the theories of Lysenko. Real science was suppressed in favour of such rubbish. Abiotic oil is straight from the same steaming pile of Stalinist BS.

What is more interesting is the quite real abiotic production of CH4. I wonder how much of the clathrates and cryosphere seabed CH4 really due to biotic processes and how much is abiotic. The Yamal peninsula and its exploding permafrost appears to the due to CH4 seeping from much deeper in the crust and not just the usual organic carbon reservoir in the permafrost. If these explosions were related to organic CH4, then they would be happening in Canada and elsewhere. Permafrost melt is not exclusive to the Yamal peninsula. Organic CH4 formation and storage in the Yamal peninsula does not show any outlier behaviour as well.
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Sun 14 Jan 2018, 16:58:19

d - "The Yamal peninsula and its exploding permafrost appears to the due to CH4 seeping from much deeper in the crust and not just the usual organic carbon reservoir in the permafrost." Why do you think the permafrost methane could not have migrated from organic sources many thousands of feet below the permafrost? Such deep organic sources have been documented all around the world. Perhaps I'm reading you wrong but you seem to believe that permafrost methane deposits can only come from in situ organic sources. That's not true. Any shallow methane deposit could come very deep organic sources. I've produces NG from reservoirs at less then 2,000' that clearly migrated up a major fault from a source rock more then 20,000' down.
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby diemos » Mon 15 Jan 2018, 16:05:23

dissident wrote:Stalin era Soviet science was the next best thing to voodoo. Consider the theories of Lysenko. Real science was suppressed in favour of such rubbish.


People who gain political power and can dictate the structure of society often fall into the trap of thinking that they can dictate what reality is just as easily.

All sorts of madness lie down that road.
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 2 (merged)

Unread postby dissident » Mon 15 Jan 2018, 19:39:35

ROCKMAN wrote:d - "The Yamal peninsula and its exploding permafrost appears to the due to CH4 seeping from much deeper in the crust and not just the usual organic carbon reservoir in the permafrost." Why do you think the permafrost methane could not have migrated from organic sources many thousands of feet below the permafrost? Such deep organic sources have been documented all around the world. Perhaps I'm reading you wrong but you seem to believe that permafrost methane deposits can only come from in situ organic sources. That's not true. Any shallow methane deposit could come very deep organic sources. I've produces NG from reservoirs at less then 2,000' that clearly migrated up a major fault from a source rock more then 20,000' down.


Your reply answers my part of my question. It is common to view CH4 emissions from permafrost as being due to decomposition of organic carbon and not from melting clathrates with an abiotic origin or conventional gas reservoir leaks. My basic question remains: how much of the CH4 reservoir accessible to drilling is due to biotic processes (ancient swamp carbon burial like coal) and how much is due to abiotic process from ongoing rock chemistry. I see no clarity on this anywhere.
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 3

Unread postby MD » Tue 16 Jan 2018, 03:15:10

it's one of the most interesting ff discussions. Not relevant to circumstance, but interesting. I am very much in the middle in my opinions, but who cares?
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 3

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 16 Jan 2018, 13:32:05

d - " ...how much of the CH4 reservoir accessible to drilling is due to biotic processes (ancient swamp carbon burial like coal) and how much is due to abiotic process from ongoing rock chemistry. I see no clarity on this anywhere." And I doubt you ever will. The two camps are so opposed to each other's position there is no middle ground.

And to respond to MD's question of who cares: the Rockman doesn't give a f*ck one way or the other. LOL. That's why I've claimed to believe all oil/NG has an abiotic origin: it doesn't matter so why care? Oil/NG is only produced from commercial reservoirs where oil/NG is FOUND. Over the last 5 decades the industry has developed excellent exploration technology needed to FIND such accumulations. Yes: the success rate is much higher today then when the big conventional fields were discovered. No: there WAS NEVER any "low hanging fruit". That phrase is used by folks who never worked in the industry. Yes: decades ago there was huge "fruit" to be harvested compared to today. But IT WAS NOT low hanging. The Rockman is redeveloping a field today that was discovered in 1946. In a trend at a depth of only 5,000'. And this trend, which almost no one here has ever heard of, has produced 4.5 BILLION BBLS OF OIL. And there were individual fields that produced as much oil as being found today in some of the Deep Water GOM. And the success rate in the 40's/50's was much lower then they are having in the DW GOM. And that old trend is still being drilled today. But instead of finding fields containing hundreds of millions of bbls the new discoveries are finding 5 to 10 million bbls of oil. And not many of them.

And the history of oil development of this trend wasn't dependent upon the oil being biotic or abiotic: it depended only on finding those oil accumulations. The geologists that found the fields didn't give a f*ck where the oil was created...only where it migrated to and was trapped.
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 3

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 16 Jan 2018, 14:04:49

That's why I've claimed to believe all oil/NG has an abiotic origin: it doesn't matter so why care? Oil/NG is only produced from commercial reservoirs where oil/NG is FOUND.


and one of those technologies is basin modeling which is still used extensively in the International arena. Over the years I'd used Basinmod and Temispak to model maturation and migration in places like Algeria, Sudan, Indonesia, Colombia, Russia etc. This is where it does actually matter that oil is organic in origin...the models work. And without an organic origin there would be no shale production of oil and gas in the US (in-situ maturation with no migration). Certainly in basins where the maturation and migration of hydrocarbons has been proven and is pretty well understood it no longer matters, all you need is a trapping configuration with good seal. But that doesn't negate it's importance elsewhere.
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 3

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 16 Jan 2018, 15:00:58

True Doc. But how many basins do you know of that haven't been drilled and samples tested for oil generation? Modeling was critical decades ago. Not so much today. And the conversation dealt with current exploration efforts.
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Re: THE Abiotic Oil Thread pt 3

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 16 Jan 2018, 16:29:33

True Doc. But how many basins do you know of that haven't been drilled and samples tested for oil generation? Modeling was critical decades ago. Not so much today. And the conversation dealt with current exploration efforts.


I will have to check and see what Doug Waples has been doing these past few years consulting. He seems to stay pretty busy and he is the guy after all who pretty much brought basin modeling to the mainstream oil and gas business in the early eighties.
Do know that overseas it is still used to predict maturation of shale basins to rank them for potential shale gas/liquids maturation. The USGS a couple of years ago used their own 4D basin modeling program to understand the importance of the Tumey shale to petroleum generation in the San Joquin basin. ENI also did some 3D basin modeling in the Pearl River Mouth Basin and presented that work a couple of years ago (it is a complex area and there has been some arguments as to where there is still prospectivity).
The technique is being used extensively now to test other theories regarding diagenesis, fault timing, migrating timing etc.
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