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Bitcoin uses far too much energy

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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby Subjectivist » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 21:05:35

Kaiser you make Bitcoin sound like Aluminum. You know, the metal they refer to as “Congealed Electricity” because it takes so much current to refine Alumina into Aluminum?
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 12 Jan 2018, 23:46:02

A blockchain grows longer each time it changes hands, and each transaction is slower than the last and consumes a bit more energy. Not to mention that they are subject to being destroyed if the blockchains vanish because the computer loses power or network connectivity.

The only "good idea' in bitcoin is to be independant of any government. All other aspects are bad ideas.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby careinke » Sat 13 Jan 2018, 05:39:00

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:However there are cryptocurrencies which *are* quantum ready, eg quantum computation approach is of no use in breaking their codes.
Example is NEO.

Do you have credible, clear, citations for this?

Because I (via various casual Google searches) see various breathless claims about things that might happen in the future re crypto-currencies and quantum computers, but considering quantum computers are in their infancy, it seems to be mostly theory, predictions, and promises, since it's not like serious testing of claims can be made by seriously powerful quantum computers.


The place to start your research, is to read the white paper on the particular coin/token in question. Then at least you you can have a reasoned discussion about the coin based on the designers beliefs, not something you just make up.

I wish KJ would read the white paper on Bitcoin. Of all of us, I think he would "Grok" it the quickest, and I would love to get his opinion on it.

The statement that a quantum computer could instantly mine all the remaining bitcoin is silly. The code does not allow that to happen, and even if it could, what would be the point?

POW does use a lot of electricity, but Elon Musk is working on that. 8)
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 13 Jan 2018, 13:17:04

@OS
Current quantum computers are dealing with ~20 q-bits.
5000-10000 q-bits would be required to intercept bitcoin payments in real time. This is according to my son who is a geek in it and also a very successful bitcoin trader.

NEO is quantum ready because its algoritms of encryption are *not* relying on factorizing of large numbers like in case of bitcoin but on solving other mathematical hard problems where quantum computing does not bring so much of advantage.

Sophisticated quantum computers are not yet around, but their advantages and limitations dictated by physics of quantum computation are rather well understood.

You should also notice that blockchain technology is on the brink of significant upgrade and *OUT OF BLOCK* transactions on bitcoin have already been tested.
If this is scaleable, then so called *lightning network* will give new lease of life to bitcoin.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 13 Jan 2018, 13:34:52

KaiserJeep wrote:A blockchain grows longer each time it changes hands, and each transaction is slower than the last and consumes a bit more energy. Not to mention that they are subject to being destroyed if the blockchains vanish because the computer loses power or network connectivity.

The only "good idea' in bitcoin is to be independant of any government. All other aspects are bad ideas.

There are various ideas in crypto community about reducing lenght of "log of block". If these work, many of problems you mention will vanish.
Bitcoins are vanishing when passwords (private keys) are lost. Computer crash will not destroy your bitcoins. You can access them from *any* computer, as long as you have your private key at hand. Hence they are for example quite resistant to confiscation. Taking away your computer won't do if your private key is not recorded on it.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 13 Jan 2018, 13:42:43

KaiserJeep wrote:The Ridiculous Amount of Energy It Takes to Run Bitcoin
Running Bitcoin uses a small city’s worth of electricity. Intel and others want to make a more sustainable blockchain.


Bitcoin “miners” are electromagnetic alchemists, effectively turning megawatt-hours of electricity into the world’s fastest-growing currency. Their intensive computational activity cryptographically secures the virtual currency, approves transactions, and, in the process, creates new bitcoins for the miners, as payment.

And it does another thing, too: It uses an absolutely stunning amount of power. The ever-expanding racks of processors used by miners already consume as much electricity as a small city. It’s a problem that experts say is bad and getting worse.

You are mistaken.
Bitcoin uses more energy.
Perhaps more than Ireland or Danemark
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-42265728
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sat 13 Jan 2018, 14:12:08

Here is a proper research paper dealing with risks to bitcoin and other cryptos posed by quantum computers and also with available remedies.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1710.10377.pdf
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 13 Jan 2018, 14:47:55

There are no quantum computers, only variations on the basic x86 microprocessor design. Software may be described at quantum but that is BS, the basic ALU/control instruction set along with the register/memory model has not changed. With some additional machine level functions, for a bit of parallel processing where possible as in graphic mapping. You still page in, you page out.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sat 13 Jan 2018, 16:58:36

FWIW, quantum computing and cryptocurrencies been debated and discussed at length in my IEEE and Computer Society publications.

Quantum computing is an intriging IDEA. But circuitry for quantum devices exists only in the laboratory. As with cryogenic conventional microelectronics (which have existed since the 1980s) this technology may or may not and probably won't make it into production any time soon.

It is a safe bet however that electronics of whatever basic tech will continue to get denser, more capable, and use less power while producing less heat. I updated my 10+ year old E-reader to a Samsung tablet at Christmas, it has an 8-core CPU, a fast clock speed, more memory than the PC I am typing this on, a display that surpasses HDTV, two cameras, a microphone, stereo speakers, etc., and cost me $189 at Costco. The wife got a new iPad that similarly surpasses her old one, for less than half what the old one cost. Both offer 10-12 hours of use between charges, since that is not enough, I have a portable USB battery...

My point would be that cryptocurrencies are new and interesting, but the speculation and price appreciation are probably not justifiable by any rational standard. Although secure today, blockchain technology may well not be secure tomorrow, and the value MAY vanish overnight. I certainly do not own any of these Bitcoins or any variant, nor do I intend to.

I do still practice safe computing. I do not expose credit card numbers on any mobile device because of KRACK. I reserve one card for online use alone, the others I never use for such. Even though my new tablet and the wife's new iPad both have KRACK updates, they are still vulnerable until the last WiFi access point on the planet has been updated - I'll never use them for purchasing again. Online purchases are mad at a single PC with a current set of major brand name security suite software.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 14 Jan 2018, 07:04:37

EnergyUnlimited wrote:@OS
Current quantum computers are dealing with ~20 q-bits.
5000-10000 q-bits would be required to intercept bitcoin payments in real time. This is according to my son who is a geek in it and also a very successful bitcoin trader.

I just wanted to ensure we were on the same page regarding where we are in quantum computing. So we're talking computing qubits, and roughly 20 is about right, per what IBM is currently doing, such as selling access to a 20 qubit quantum simulator, for research and learning about programming such computers effectively.

But getting to 5000 or 10000 in a few years or even ten years seems COMPLETELY contradictory to the most aggressive expectations I found of IBM selling 50 qubit quantum computers in a few or perhaps ten years, if things go well.

Also, per the same articles cited above and similar, 50 qubits would provide an extremely powerful computer compared to computers today. So I'm not sure I'm buying even the need for many-thousand bit quantum computers to break cryptography (with the right programming expertise).

Based on the little I've read and what you've stated vs. what was in the articles re quantum computing, and how little I KNOW I know about it, I don't think either of us are in a position to intelligently debate it. Thus, I don't think making claims about it (unless we want to cite articles and hope they're correct) makes a lot of sense here.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 14 Jan 2018, 12:00:04

Outcast_Searcher wrote:But getting to 5000 or 10000 in a few years or even ten years seems COMPLETELY contradictory to the most aggressive expectations I found of IBM selling 50 qubit quantum computers in a few or perhaps ten years, if things go well.

Moore law may be applicable and this can result in huge surprises, how fast number of q-bits grow.

Also, per the same articles cited above and similar, 50 qubits would provide an extremely powerful computer compared to computers today. So I'm not sure I'm buying even the need for many-thousand bit quantum computers to break cryptography (with the right programming expertise).

Quantum computer can do only so much and not more as per given number of q-bits.
There are cryptographic approaches resistant to quantum computers with *billions* of q-bits at their disposal.
Read research article which I have quoted before for in depth analysis.
Here it is quoted again:
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1710.10377.pdf
They are claiming that about half a million of q-bits would be needed to intercept bitcoin payments in real time. My son believes that 5000-10000 could do but this is under ideal conditions (no decohherence related errors between other close to magical features), so it is a lower limit.
So 50 q-bits is surely far short of need.
There are mathematical problems far too hard to solve for even very powerful quantum computers and encryption is inherrently easier than decryption.
Actually I am aware of encryption method based on *quantum entanglement* which cannot be broken by laws of physics. Legitimate users of this method would also be aware by virtue of laws of physics that someone was tampering with their message, even if breaking the code was impossible in the first place.
Chinese military (and possibly other militaries too) are testing this method for communications.
So arms race between encryptors and decryptors will be won by the first lot.

Btw,
Quantum computers are unlikely to *ever* materialize in form of PC. Their circuitry need to work close to absolute zero to minimize decoherrence related troubles. Liquid helium cooling etc. It will be toys of military, big corpo and millionaries.
There are some suspicions expressed by Roger Penrose that emergence of consciousness might be related to quantum computing going on in your brain, but these are IMO speculations. You may read about Penrose-Hameroff ORCH-OR theory of consciousness if interested.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 14 Jan 2018, 13:40:10

EU, i just made the point that quantum computers do not exist, and may never. In case you did not know this, I am a EE who retired after a 38 year career at HP, designing computers. I am also still a member of both the IEEE and the Computer Society.

Quantum computers do not exist anywhere. Basic quantum devices are laboratory toys that probably will never make it out of the lab. Papers discussing the software and the capabilities of non-existent machines are fun to read - I have been an SF fan since I was a teenager.

There are brand names for both ordinary hardware and ordinary software that include the meaningless stream of characters "Q-u-a-n-t-u-m". That's about as concise a summary as I can make.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 14 Jan 2018, 14:30:35

EnergyUnlimited wrote:Bitcoins are vanishing when passwords (private keys) are lost. Computer crash will not destroy your bitcoins. You can access them from *any* computer, as long as you have your private key at hand. Hence they are for example quite resistant to confiscation. Taking away your computer won't do if your private key is not recorded on it.

What about the widely cited stories about various Bitcoin sites that have been hacked, where many people have lost significant amounts / percentages of their bitcoins?

I want no part of a "currency" that isn't regulated well enough to protect against such problems. At least financial accounts have SIPC, FDIC, auditing, etc. (Since I don't cheat on my taxes and the reality of big government, the NSA, etc., I'm not buying any assurances that crypto will give us some magic elixar to avoid all taxes. If that becomes a credible threat, government WILL act to prevent it, via law, regulation, etc).

Physical theft is an issue, which is why I hardly ever use physical cash anymore except to feed parking meters (not having a smart phone) and the occasional pre-cash-card washing machine, and the odd lawn mover or snow shoveler who wants cash.

(Like KJ, I take some serious effort to try to protect my online accounts).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 14 Jan 2018, 15:03:31

KaiserJeep wrote:EU, i just made the point that quantum computers do not exist, and may never. In case you did not know this, I am a EE who retired after a 38 year career at HP, designing computers. I am also still a member of both the IEEE and the Computer Society.

Quantum computers do not exist anywhere. Basic quantum devices are laboratory toys that probably will never make it out of the lab. Papers discussing the software and the capabilities of non-existent machines are fun to read - I have been an SF fan since I was a teenager.

There are brand names for both ordinary hardware and ordinary software that include the meaningless stream of characters "Q-u-a-n-t-u-m". That's about as concise a summary as I can make.

Quantum computers are permitted by laws of physics and basic proves of concept are being tested right now in labs. They may or may not be developed into machines superior to existing ones, but dismissing them off hand seems foolhardy.
It is wise for these dealing with encryption technology to assume that quantum computers will be made up to the task and make sure that their codes are resistant to assaults by these machines. Otherwise many secrets may become available to public (and adversaries) and huge ambarasment dwarfing Snowden revelations may result. Eventual breaking of bitcoin encryption may be one of more mundane and unimportant consequences.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 14 Jan 2018, 15:32:03

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:Bitcoins are vanishing when passwords (private keys) are lost. Computer crash will not destroy your bitcoins. You can access them from *any* computer, as long as you have your private key at hand. Hence they are for example quite resistant to confiscation. Taking away your computer won't do if your private key is not recorded on it.

What about the widely cited stories about various Bitcoin sites that have been hacked, where many people have lost significant amounts / percentages of their bitcoins?
.
Bitcoins are not disappearing here but simply changing an owner. Very much like funds from compromised credit cards.

I want no part of a "currency" that isn't regulated well enough to protect against such problems. At least financial accounts have SIPC, FDIC, auditing, etc. (Since I don't cheat on my taxes and the reality of big government, the NSA, etc., I'm not buying any assurances that crypto will give us some magic elixar to avoid all taxes. If that becomes a credible threat, government WILL act to prevent it, via law, regulation, etc).

Physical theft is an issue, which is why I hardly ever use physical cash anymore except to feed parking meters (not having a smart phone) and the occasional pre-cash-card washing machine, and the odd lawn mover or snow shoveler who wants cash.

(Like KJ, I take some serious effort to try to protect my online accounts).

I do not know, what you are doing in your private life and I care little about that, but above you have done a great deal of an ass licking to your TPTB and this will be recorded by them and remembered as a good deed, even if done not out of heart but by desire to be politically correct. You just done your share of flag waving.

Setting aside these, most of money in bitcoin and other crypto is made by buying it cheap and selling expensive. There are millions of cretins on bitcoin exchanges, characters of FOMO-type, and you can perpetually feed them with expensive bitcoins (they tend to buy on the top) which you can buy again during corrections. So within last three months my son have made something in excess of $1 million starting with $20000. Profits are so hefty and wealth grows so fast that he is actually happy to pay these taxes, so government fuck off of him. In normal business he would do whatever needed to minimize these, just to stay above water.
Dont know, how long this eldorado will last, but as long as it does my son won't rest.
This is one shot in life opportunity.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 14 Jan 2018, 18:02:22

EnergyUnlimited wrote:-snip-
Quantum computers are permitted by laws of physics and basic proves of concept are being tested right now in labs. They may or may not be developed into machines superior to existing ones, but dismissing them off hand seems foolhardy.
It is wise for these dealing with encryption technology to assume that quantum computers will be made up to the task and make sure that their codes are resistant to assaults by these machines. Otherwise many secrets may become available to public (and adversaries) and huge ambarasment dwarfing Snowden revelations may result. Eventual breaking of bitcoin encryption may be one of more mundane and unimportant consequences.


I am not dismissing anything out of hand. The theories of quantum computing are interesting enough to read about. However I know from experience how many years it takes to bring a new computer design to market based solely upon current existing technology. In the case of real quantum computers - not the marketing BS that attaches a meaningless label to ordinary existing technology - we are several years from sellable models - or indeed, even working computers as opposed to tiny individual circuits.

Not to mention, there have been zero cryogenic computers either in labs or in production. Likewise there are no room temperature superconductors in commercial production either. There are significant technical issues to overcome before these quantum computers can exist.

Quantum computing is like warp drive. You can imagine it, you can make calculations about performance. You cannot build a warp reactor and you can't fuel it if you could, because there is no anti-matter on Earth larger than a single particle, barely detectable when it vanishes in a flash of photons.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Sun 14 Jan 2018, 18:47:47

I would not compare quantum computers to warp drive.
Former are within grasp of existing or near tech and later is pure fantasy.
You would probably need stellar mases of antimatter and also stellar mases of so called hypothetical "negative mass matter" also known as "exotic matter" to produce something what might resemble warp drive. Then your starship would need to maintan integrity in environment so harsh that exploding supernova would seem like a tiny candle by comparison.

Btw, we have produced more antimatter by now than you think. Maybe 10-100 nanograms in total, mostly in form of positrons and antiprotons. About 2ug (2 x 10^-6 gram) of antimatter is at any given time in Van Allen belts.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 14 Jan 2018, 22:47:44

EnergyUnlimited wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:But getting to 5000 or 10000 in a few years or even ten years seems COMPLETELY contradictory to the most aggressive expectations I found of IBM selling 50 qubit quantum computers in a few or perhaps ten years, if things go well.

Moore law may be applicable and this can result in huge surprises, how fast number of q-bits grow.

I'm finding your claims re quantum computing less and less credible.

First, you said this upthread to me, re your opinion of where quantum computing is going on Friday 1/12/18:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:@Outcast Searcher
This would require 5000-10000 q-bits quantum computers. Few years in the future, 10 years at most if BAU last this long.

And now you're claiming Moore's Law "may" be applicable. Yeah, maybe. But it operates on the scale of decades to move from 20 or 50 to 5000 or 10000 of something. Not a few years.

Then, down-thread, you admit to KJ that quantum computers are still toys in the lab and may or may not have practical sales outside the lab.

So you seem to be ALL OVER the map on this.

...

Again, I'm seeing more of a rah-rah flavor than hard proof on the crypto-currency promises, generally. And again, since there are no existing seriously powerful quantum computers, such claims can't be tested.

I haven't looked at the serious white papers cited. Again -- I fully admit I'm only a layman re quantum computing. (I might want to do that at the point seriously powerful quantum computers are actually being sold commercially).

The crypto-currency hacking problem, which you blithely dismiss as though it doesn't matter, is WAY more serious in my mind anyway, unless and until powerful quantum computers actually show signs of existing very soon. Today they don't. (Visa losses, which you compared crypto hacking losses to, are limited to $50 as long as an individual reports problems to the issuing bank within 48 hours, last time I looked. Crypto-currencies have no such assurances. The benefits and the curse of supposed privacy.)
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby careinke » Sun 14 Jan 2018, 23:17:08

EnergyUnlimited wrote:I do not know, what you are doing in your private life and I care little about that, but above you have done a great deal of an ass licking to your TPTB and this will be recorded by them and remembered as a good deed, even if done not out of heart but by desire to be politically correct. You just done your share of flag waving.

Setting aside these, most of money in bitcoin and other crypto is made by buying it cheap and selling expensive. There are millions of cretins on bitcoin exchanges, characters of FOMO-type, and you can perpetually feed them with expensive bitcoins (they tend to buy on the top) which you can buy again during corrections. So within last three months my son have made something in excess of $1 million starting with $20000. Profits are so hefty and wealth grows so fast that he is actually happy to pay these taxes, so government fuck off of him. In normal business he would do whatever needed to minimize these, just to stay above water.
Dont know, how long this eldorado will last, but as long as it does my son won't rest.
This is one shot in life opportunity.


Could you ask your son what he is using to track his trades? I am searching for a good one. Tax time is coming....
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Re: Bitcoin uses far too much energy

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Mon 15 Jan 2018, 03:10:53

careinke wrote:
EnergyUnlimited wrote:I do not know, what you are doing in your private life and I care little about that, but above you have done a great deal of an ass licking to your TPTB and this will be recorded by them and remembered as a good deed, even if done not out of heart but by desire to be politically correct. You just done your share of flag waving.

Setting aside these, most of money in bitcoin and other crypto is made by buying it cheap and selling expensive. There are millions of cretins on bitcoin exchanges, characters of FOMO-type, and you can perpetually feed them with expensive bitcoins (they tend to buy on the top) which you can buy again during corrections. So within last three months my son have made something in excess of $1 million starting with $20000. Profits are so hefty and wealth grows so fast that he is actually happy to pay these taxes, so government fuck off of him. In normal business he would do whatever needed to minimize these, just to stay above water.
Dont know, how long this eldorado will last, but as long as it does my son won't rest.
This is one shot in life opportunity.


Could you ask your son what he is using to track his trades? I am searching for a good one. Tax time is coming....

In United States he is trading on Bittrex.
They are providing you with logs of transactions and provisions paid.
You can download these in form of CSV file, which is easy to work with for your accuntant.
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