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Making Tesla pt. 2

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 12:13:35

Elon Musk will send his Tesla Roadster to Mars on a giant rocket

Why not a Tesla Semi? Musk is wasting an opportunity.

The team would need only to install a string of solar-powered megachargers (543kwh capacity) on the way up. Simple modifications to the S-II stage and S-IVB third stage vehicles would simplify back-haul infrastructure. Self-Regulating (regarding?) Autonomous Telemetry (SRAT) would be employed to search out, dock and refuel the vehicle.

Then Musk would sell moon rocks for additional profit lol
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 12:25:59

pstarr wrote:Elon Musk will send his Tesla Roadster to Mars on a giant rocket

Why not a Tesla Semi? Musk is wasting an opportunity.

The team would need only to install a string of solar-powered megachargers (543kwh capacity) on the way up. Simple modifications to the S-II stage and S-IVB third stage vehicles would simplify back-haul infrastructure. Self-Regulating (regarding?) Autonomous Telemetry (SRAT) would be employed to search out, dock and refuel the vehicle.

Then Musk would sell moon rocks for additional profit lol

This is roughly as sensible and realistic as the rest of your posts claiming that nothing Tesla build will work because or various made up FUD. Congrats.
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby pstarr » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 12:33:35

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
pstarr wrote:Elon Musk will send his Tesla Roadster to Mars on a giant rocket

Why not a Tesla Semi? Musk is wasting an opportunity.

The team would need only to install a string of solar-powered megachargers (543kwh capacity) on the way up. Simple modifications to the S-II stage and S-IVB third stage vehicles would simplify back-haul infrastructure. Self-Regulating (regarding?) Autonomous Telemetry (SRAT) would be employed to search out, dock and refuel the vehicle.

Then Musk would sell moon rocks for additional profit lol

This is roughly as sensible and realistic as the rest of your posts claiming that nothing Tesla build will work because or various made up FUD. Congrats.
f@ck it all. Just send the Hyperloopy up there then :x
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 12:34:36

Plantagenet wrote:
kublikhan wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:Tesla all-electric semi truck to start at $150K.
$150k? and $180k for the 500 mile version? Wow that's cheap. I thought it would be at least twice that.


Lets wait and see how much it actually costs when it actually gets manufactured and is actually for sale before we get too excited about this preliminary price announcement.

Of maybe I should say IF it gets manufactured and if it ever is actually for sale.

Cheers!

Well, so far Tesla has made what it claims it would make. Being late and slow consistently isn't good and is probably due to Musk over-marketing. But it's far different than nothing ever being made. I've already said it wouldn't surprise me not to see volume production of these until 2021.

And when have prices radically differed from what Tesla stated they would be? To my best recollection, it's not like Tesla makes prices up and then moves them much higher when products are introduced. The key concept is that the concern was these things would be like two or three times the announced price. At these prices, even with some options, they're feasible to compete on a cost basis, when operating costs are factored in.

If you're going to speculate, how about speculating on something that resembles Tesla's history or is reasonably likely to happen? Unlike say, pstarr? Because how many people do you think believe his claims on Tesla, when they're not remotely credible time after time, month after month?

It just becomes more endless, incorrect babbling about imminent doom.

Again, I'm not claiming Tesla will survive, so don't confuse me with some Tesla fanboi.
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 20:55:39

Teslas battery in South Australia is working....

Image
Image

South Australia's giant Tesla battery has begun dispatching stored wind power into the electricity grid a day ahead of its scheduled switch-on.
The 100MW/129MWh battery is capable of powering about 30,000 homes for a little over an hour.

The manufacturer, Tesla says the lithium-ion device — made up of PowerWall 2 batteries — is both the "largest" by storage and "most powerful" of its type in the world.

South Australian taxpayers will be subsidising its operation with up to $50 million over the next 10 years.

In return, the South Australian Government will have the right to use the battery to prevent load-shedding blackouts.

It will also be able to use a portion of the battery's output to provide system security services to the grid, in an effort to bring down prices.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-11-30/s ... le/9212794
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Sat 02 Dec 2017, 21:20:21

But on the other side of the coin
Pumped Hydro storage is probably going to be a better and bigger long term solution


Australia’s pumped hydro storage potential worth thousands of Tesla big batteries
Australia has enough untapped pumped hydro energy storage potential to support a 100 per cent renewable energy grid – 35 times over, a team of Australian National University researchers has found.
“Each site has seven to 1,000 times larger storage potential than the 0.13 GWh Tesla battery to be installed in South Australia,” said Blakers.

“Additionally, pumped hydro has a lifetime of 50 years compared with eight to 15 years for batteries.”
http://reneweconomy.com.au/australias-p ... ies-32690/

Abandoned mines are a good place to start the holes are already dug and most are already full of water and they are out in the desert with lots of sun
Theres a project in Northern Qld that will store solar PV with pumped water to give base load power over 24 hrs

Image
http://www.genexpower.com.au/the-kidsto ... -50mw.html
http://reneweconomy.com.au/kidston-sola ... ena-88051/
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby tita » Sun 03 Dec 2017, 10:50:11

Good points Shaved Monkey!

I was a bit amazed when I discovered that Australia has some hydro capacity, but very low pumped hydro capacity. This is probably due to the fact that most of their electricity needs are provided by fossil fuels (more than 70%, coal and gas), which don't require much storage as fossil plants can be started and stopped to follow the demand, unlike nuclear plants that can't be stopped or renewables that supply intermittently.

Battery storage is an expensive way to deal with the problem. It made sense because it could be made in a short time. Also, battery storage is useful to answer daily high peak demand. But on a large-scale and long-term approach, you develop pump-storage hydro when you can.

Tesla powerwalls makes also no economic sense, because they are too big. You actually want to pay less, not more. So, you want a battery to provide electricity when the market price is the highest (6pm to 10pm). To work, you need to measure your energy needs in this time range and buy a battery with a related size. But then, the work and maintenance needed for such small installation becomes too high. This is a niche market for green conscious customers or rich people that want to pay more.
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby StarvingLion » Mon 04 Dec 2017, 21:38:21

Shaved Monkey wrote:But on the other side of the coin
Pumped Hydro storage is probably going to be a better and bigger long term solution


In other words, nothing actually works period. But in the future, something will work because yuze a believer.

You are screwed, admit it. " Hello, is this Prison City Inc. Yeah, I got a live one for ya. Believes in Green Fairy Tales and all sorts of Free Shit that don't exist. He goes by the name Shaved Monkey. "
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 04 Dec 2017, 21:50:37

StarvingLion wrote:
Shaved Monkey wrote:But on the other side of the coin
Pumped Hydro storage is probably going to be a better and bigger long term solution


In other words, nothing actually works period. But in the future, something will work because yuze a believer.

You are screwed, admit it. " Hello, is this Prison City Inc. Yeah, I got a live one for ya. Believes in Green Fairy Tales and all sorts of Free Shit that don't exist. He goes by the name Shaved Monkey. "

OMG you are sardonic 8O :lol: 8)
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 01:31:25

StarvingLion wrote:
Shaved Monkey wrote:But on the other side of the coin
Pumped Hydro storage is probably going to be a better and bigger long term solution


In other words, nothing actually works period. But in the future, something will work because yuze a believer.

You are screwed, admit it. " Hello, is this Prison City Inc. Yeah, I got a live one for ya. Believes in Green Fairy Tales and all sorts of Free Shit that don't exist. He goes by the name Shaved Monkey. "

I dont think there is any harm in believing, they actually will work too (but at what cost???? and what time frame)
Not enough people believe that free shit should be funded is the real problem.
Thats the prison
If it doesnt fit the ideology or it threatens someone elses return it aint going to happen,if it can turn a profit for a corporation it has a chance.
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 01:38:22

Problem with pump storage in Oz is what water we have is in the dams where it's needed. There's no shortage of seawater, but there's no way anyone's going to get to pumping seawater into those.
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby GHung » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 09:25:04

SeaGypsy wrote:Problem with pump storage in Oz is what water we have is in the dams where it's needed. There's no shortage of seawater, but there's no way anyone's going to get to pumping seawater into those.


Many pumped storage systems have a high and low reservoir. Pump from low to high when there is surplus power generation, generate from the upper reservoir when needed. There are some losses to evaporation and other uses, but much of the water just gets recycled.

Nuclear Plant Vogtle in Georgia (US) uses a pair of reservoirs to store surplus production and keep the plant in a steady state.
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 12:16:34

JP Morgan is advising its clients to go short on Tesla

jpmorgan-has-a-new-short-idea-tesla-shares-to-fall-40-percent-in-12-months

That seems crazy risky to me. All Elon Musk has to do is trot out some new kind of EV and people will rush to buy his stock. In six months he can do a dog and pony show about the upcoming Tesla EV motorcycle and the stock will go up 50%. Then in another 6 months he can show a mockup of a Tesla EV lawnmower and the stock will go up another 50%.

Those shorts are going to get squeezed and crushed by the TESLA stock promotion machine.

Cheers!
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 05 Dec 2017, 12:20:47

Don't forget the Tesla EV Toothbrush! And can opener ooh ooh ooh

Cheers! [smilie=car10.gif]
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Wed 06 Dec 2017, 20:15:24

SeaGypsy wrote:Problem with pump storage in Oz is what water we have is in the dams where it's needed. There's no shortage of seawater, but there's no way anyone's going to get to pumping seawater into those.

Their is Artesian water its being used for mining, plenty of water flows in the wet season down rivers back to the ocean and then seas water near the coast.
It takes a whole lot less infrastructure as you only need a holding dam and a pipe the sea is you bottom holding tank.
Heres a pumped sea water plant in Japan
Image
and the proposed one in SA
https://www.energyaustralia.com.au/abou ... mped-hydro
http://reneweconomy.com.au/south-austra ... ape-92608/
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 06 Dec 2017, 20:26:20

I think the cost of building the required dams and dykes will be the limiting factor not the water supply. Some of those graphic representations showed dams or dykes on three sides of the reservoir. Totally cost prohibitive.
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 06 Dec 2017, 21:17:47

Shaved Monkey wrote:
SeaGypsy wrote:Problem with pump storage in Oz is what water we have is in the dams where it's needed. There's no shortage of seawater, but there's no way anyone's going to get to pumping seawater into those.

Their is Artesian water its being used for mining, plenty of water flows in the wet season down rivers back to the ocean and then seas water near the coast.
It takes a whole lot less infrastructure as you only need a holding dam and a pipe the sea is you bottom holding tank.
Heres a pumped sea water plant in Japan
Image
and the proposed one in SA
https://www.energyaustralia.com.au/abou ... mped-hydro
http://reneweconomy.com.au/south-austra ... ape-92608/

Lake Power is 250 square miles. Need say more?

Okay. That little swimming pool hardly generates power to run the drink blender. Forget about the party lights.
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby GHung » Wed 06 Dec 2017, 21:39:30

vtsnowedin wrote:I think the cost of building the required dams and dykes will be the limiting factor not the water supply. Some of those graphic representations showed dams or dykes on three sides of the reservoir. Totally cost prohibitive.


Raccoon Mountain Pumped-Storage Plant is a pumped-storage hydroelectric underground power station in Marion County, just west of Chattanooga in the U.S. state of Tennessee.

The facility is owned and operated by the Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA). Construction was started in 1970 and was completed in 1978.[1]

Water is pumped from Nickajack Lake on the Tennessee River at the base of Raccoon Mountain to a storage reservoir built at the top of the mountain. The reservoir at the top of the mountain covers 528 acres (214 ha), with a dam that is 230 feet (70 m) high and 5,800 feet (1,800 m) long, the largest rock-fill dam ever built by TVA. It takes 28 hours to fill the upper reservoir. During periods of high electric demand, water can be released from the reservoir through a tunnel drilled through the center of the mountain, driving electric generators in an underground hydroelectric plant.[1] The plant has a capacity of 1,652 megawatts (2,215,000 hp) of electricity and can generate for up to 22 hours. The plant is used most days and serves as an important element for peak power generation and grid balancing in the TVA system.[2][3]

The plant was idled in March 2012 due to cracks in the generators' rotors. The plant came entirely back on line in April 2014.[4]

Image

Image
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raccoon_M ... rage_Plant
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 06 Dec 2017, 21:45:56

The areas where the Australian Artesian Basin is not very deep, there's no fall. Look at altitude & terrain maps. The basin is nowhere near any significant population areas, the entire area has a population of less than 250,000 people & 95% of it is under flat or nearly flat lowlands. (Roughly the central 1/3 of the continent from north to south).
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Re: Making Tesla pt. 2

Unread postby Shaved Monkey » Thu 07 Dec 2017, 04:19:58

SeaGypsy wrote:The areas where the Australian Artesian Basin is not very deep, there's no fall. Look at altitude & terrain maps. The basin is nowhere near any significant population areas, the entire area has a population of less than 250,000 people & 95% of it is under flat or nearly flat lowlands. (Roughly the central 1/3 of the continent from north to south).

It doesnt need fall just a hill with a dam on top and a dam below
Excess wind and solar pumps it up the hill.
The one out the back of Townsville is near a national grid connection the salt water one proposed for SA is near a decommissioned coal fired power plant so theres wires there too

Its not energy efficient ,its just a battery to rival Teslas and it will compete on scale and size and maintenance and length of service Im not sure on cost but it probably will on that too.
Roughly it takes 3 times more energy to push water up hill than it makes in power coming back down hill.
But its basically set and forget when you build it and it enables solar and wind power to be stored and makes it base load or rapid peak demand.
Its an option its not the solution on its own
But if we are going to move to electric cars we are going to need more power to charge them.

It will come down to the cost of land, concrete, turbines and pipes V other forms of energy storage (Tesla, solar thermal ,making/storing/transporting hydrogen ) and obviously base load coal will still be there until its not
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