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Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 15:52:28

vtsnowedin wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:
Instead of forcing unworkable and costly government mandates on the American people, we should look to technology and innovation to lead the way to address climate change,” he added.



Cheers!

Or they could just raise the gas and diesel tax by a dollar a gallon and raise 150 to 200 billion a year depending on how much people cut back their use. You could rebate to poor people $600 a year through refundable tax credits to keep it from being regressive. That certainly can be done and would reduce carbon output and release of waste heat far better then any of these geo engineering schemes ever will.


Yup.

Thats basically the GOP carbon tax plan that was put out about a year ago by the party elders.

But we will also probably need some kind of geoengineering fix to try to take CO2 out of the atmosphere to mitigate the warming and reduce the climate chaos.

Of course, it really doesn't matter that the GOP is slowly moving toward supporting a carbon tax and geoengineering, because in a year we'll be back with a D congress whose main issues will be trying to impeach trump. :lol:

Cheers!
Last edited by Plantagenet on Fri 10 Nov 2017, 15:55:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 15:55:05

Sorry to say while well intentioned V“s scheme would not stand a chance of working. The poor would just spend that money. And our Capitalism system would keep churning out economic activity and consequently emissions
“"If you think the economy is more important than the environment, try holding your breath while counting your money"”
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 16:09:58

onlooker wrote:Sorry to say while well intentioned V“s scheme would not stand a chance of working. The poor would just spend that money. And our Capitalism system would keep churning out economic activity and consequently emissions

The poor that have to commute to work by car would use the credit to pay the gas tax. Those that avoided using fuel by car pooling or buying an electric car or whatever means would have the money to spend which incentivizes those efforts. Not all spending or economic activity has the same carbon foot print and single occupant commuting is won of the worst.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 16:36:00

And GW is already costing us plenty, and will cost ever more pretty much every year:



Climate Change Costs a Lot More Than We Recognize


Most estimates ignore the sociopolitical repercussions.


https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... -recognize
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby GHung » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 16:56:11

Plantagenet wrote:
...........
Of course, it really doesn't matter that the GOP is slowly moving toward supporting a carbon tax and geoengineering, because in a year we'll be back with a D congress whose main issues will be trying to impeach trump. :lol:

Cheers!


Sounds about right. Get rid of Trump and give a carbon dividend to folks like me with low carbon footprints.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Subjectivist » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 17:45:27

GHung wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:
...........
Of course, it really doesn't matter that the GOP is slowly moving toward supporting a carbon tax and geoengineering, because in a year we'll be back with a D congress whose main issues will be trying to impeach trump. :lol:

Cheers!


Sounds about right. Get rid of Trump and give a carbon dividend to folks like me with low carbon footprints.


If eight years of Obama and two years of that with D majority in both houses of Congress didn't do squat for carbon tax and dividend what possible reason do you have to believe dragging President Trump out of office will change anything?
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby GHung » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 18:15:57

Subjectivist wrote:
GHung wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:
...........
Of course, it really doesn't matter that the GOP is slowly moving toward supporting a carbon tax and geoengineering, because in a year we'll be back with a D congress whose main issues will be trying to impeach trump. :lol:

Cheers!


Sounds about right. Get rid of Trump and give a carbon dividend to folks like me with low carbon footprints.


If eight years of Obama and two years of that with D majority in both houses of Congress didn't do squat for carbon tax and dividend what possible reason do you have to believe dragging President Trump out of office will change anything?


Because there's some support among republicans, a group of prominent former republican legislators has recommended it, and the republicans wouldn't give Obama any meaningful victories, no matter the issue.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 21:26:39

Subjectivist wrote:If eight years of Obama and two years of that with D majority in both houses of Congress didn't do squat for carbon tax and dividend what possible reason do you have to believe dragging President Trump out of office will change anything?


Here's a refresher for you on how that went down:

"Party of no."

BTW, what little Obama did accomplish (like the regulations on coalfired power plants) is already being undone by Trump anyway.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 23:54:26

Just a reminder that there was plenty of cash around that could have been used in the last couple decades to both start to adapt and to rapidly convert to non-fossil-death-fuel based society.

The costs of war are 5.6 trillion thru 2018. (This of course is just costs for the USA. The brown folk getting bombed have their own costs.)

http://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/file ... NAL%20.pdf

And you can add to that however many trillions ended up getting thrown at the 'too big to fail' mega banksters as a reward for bringing the world to the brink of total economic collapse. Both parties, of course, are implicated in both of these realms of obscene waste and carnage.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 10 Nov 2017, 23:59:25

dohboi wrote:Just a reminder that there was plenty of cash around that could have been used in the last couple decades to both start to adapt and to rapidly convert to non-fossil-death-fuel based society.

The costs of war are 5.6 trillion thru 2018. (This of course is just costs for the USA. The brown folk getting bombed have their own costs.)

http://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/file ... NAL%20.pdf

And you can add to that however many trillions ended up getting thrown at the 'too big to fail' mega banksters as a reward for bringing the world to the brink of total economic collapse. Both parties, of course, are implicated in both of these realms of obscene waste and carnage.


Yup. You are 100% right.

And building new carbon-free energy infrastructure in the US would produce jobs and economic growth.

But both the Ds and Rs would rather go to war and waste the money on blowing people up. Its sad, really.

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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 00:06:01

Indeed.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 08:08:50

Some of us 10 years engaged in the lack of will of modern humans to mitigate. Some of us already 40 years engaged in the same.

So we want to go another 5 , 10 , 20 , 30 years engaged in the same futility?

Isn't there another choice?

I think there is.

Withdraw from efforts and expectations on agreements, alliances and empty mitigations coming from institutions and governments who are committed to globalization.

I remember years ago some posters claiming that trying to do things locally like saving a remnant prairie or preserving a wetland is hopeless when climate change will undermine any local efforts.

I am actually taking more and more the opposite approach. The only real viable place to have an impact is in your immediate local surroundings.

I mentioned on other threads that I am suspicious actually about the true intentions of efforts to mitigate climate change on the part of global alliances and global institutions. If and when they would get around to any serious mitigation ask yourself a moment for what reason?

Is it:

A) Coming from a paradigm shift of wanting to coexist in a balanced way with our biosphere

OR

B) Wanting to keep the BAU globalization model resilient?

If like me you conclude that it is B then ask yourself what this means really in terms of degradation of natural habitats and natural ecosystems around the planet as this globalization will continue the process of The Great Biotic Exchange plundering natural ecosystems in exchange for human landscapes.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby asg70 » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 08:40:56

Plantagenet wrote:But both the Ds and Rs would rather go to war and waste the money on blowing people up. Its sad, really.


Yeah, maybe another CO2-spewing flight to Greece will cheer you up.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby jedrider » Sat 11 Nov 2017, 10:58:05

asg70 wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:But both the Ds and Rs would rather go to war and waste the money on blowing people up. Its sad, really.


Yeah, maybe another CO2-spewing flight to Greece will cheer you up.


Humankind has been at War with nature forever. Whose winning may have turned a corner, though.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 17:32:12

Apologies if this has already been posted somewhere:

15,364 scientist signatories from 184 countries have issued a second warning to world about the potential consequences of the current pathway that the world is following:

William J. Ripple et al. (13 November 2017), "World Scientists’ Warning to Humanity: A Second Notice", BioScience, bix125, https://doi.org/10.1093/biosci/bix125

https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/art ... 25/4605229
&
http://scientistswarning.forestry.orego ... arning.pdf

Extract: "To prevent widespread misery and catastrophic biodiversity loss, humanity must practice a more environmentally sustainable alternative to business as usual. This prescription was well articulated by the world's leading scientists 25 years ago, but in most respects, we have not heeded their warning. Soon it will be too late to shift course away from our failing trajectory, and time is running out. We must recognize, in our day-to-day lives and in our governing institutions, that Earth with all its life is our only home."

I would just add, again, that it is never too late for us too make things even worse. :cry:

Thanks to aslr at asif for text and links
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 19:04:30

7.5 billion people can and will do a LOT of damage.

Best just get used to the idea and put your energies on surviving the bottleneck.

Crazy is doing the same thing over and over and still expecting a different result. Kinda like playing the lottery.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 19:17:38

They expressed concern about current, impending, or potential damage on planet Earth involving ozone depletion, freshwater availability, marine life depletion, ocean dead zones, forest loss, biodiversity destruction, climate change, and continued human population growth. They proclaimed that fundamental changes were urgently needed to avoid the consequences our present course would bring.

I don't see this report (at least in the summary linked) suggesting the damage is a consequence of climate chaos. Ozone depletion, aquifer drawdown, eutrophic damage to coastal waterways, loss of biodiversity have little or nothing to do with climate change. While I don't minimize the damage that humans have inflicted on ecosystem all over the world (few are any more dramatic that was has been accomplished in my backyard, the redwood forest) confusing issues doesn't help.

This damage is a consequence of the industrial civilization that we all thrive on daily. And industrial lifestyle the world's billions would love to emulate. So no hand-wringing about the global warming distraction will change this, especially when all of us continue to milk the system with every breath we take.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 21:18:34

Why would I want to survive the bottle neck?
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby asg70 » Mon 13 Nov 2017, 21:37:38

pstarr wrote:I don't see this report (at least in the summary linked) suggesting the damage is a consequence of climate chaos.


Of course you don't. Because you're an AGW denier, and hence...

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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 14 Nov 2017, 16:22:08

dohboi wrote:Why would I want to survive the bottle neck?


Sometimes I feel sorry for you.

My heartfelt condolences. :cry:
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