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Hurricane Maria

Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 17:11:50

vtsnowedin wrote:How about a few predictions.
Each week going forward I expect that the power grid will get back in operation by degrees starting at the power plants and working out towards the countryside. And as power is restored water and sewer plants will come back on line solving peoples drinking water and plumbing problems. Again this will progress from metropolitan areas out towards the countryside.
It will really suck to be the last house on the longest line out there.
As power and water are restored retail stores and gas stations will get back to business as usual and be able to provide everything customers need to survive without government help plus supply the materials and tools needed to rebuild peoples houses. The government will as usual have a cluster #$uk about how to rebuild the lost infrastructure and be found wanting. People will find a way to get around or deal with the governments incompetence.


Sounds about right.

I'm very curious to see how Trump follows through on his comment that Puerto Rico's debt burden must be "erased" to help with reconstruction.

1. Is Trump going to demand Wall Street forgive the debt and take an 80 billion dollar loss?
2. Is Trump going to ask Congress to appropriate money so the taxpayer takes over PR's debt?
3. Or was this just another one of those crazy sounding offhand comments that Trump sometimes tweets or blurts out that we should't take seriously?

trump-s-remarks-about-erasing-puerto-rico-s-debt-jolt-the-markets

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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 17:22:24

As Trump has been through bankruptcy a couple of times I'm sure he knows how that works. No clue about what he plans here or even if he has a plan beyond realizing something has to be done.
I'm glad I never invested in any PR government bonds. :)
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 17:43:32

Lets hope PR does NOT get back to "normal". Their. Or am and our normal are two different things. Their infrastructure and civil systems need improvement above the pre Maria normal.
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 18:57:43

Newfie wrote:Lets hope PR does NOT get back to "normal". Their. Or am and our normal are two different things. Their infrastructure and civil systems need improvement above the pre Maria normal.

One could hope that the phone system they rebuild would be as buried and hurricane proof as possible. I don't think there is as much room there on the electric grid as buried lines cost several times more then lines on towers or poles. You can't bankrupt yourself putting in the perfect system.
If the citizens just adapt a complete intolerance for any civic corruption things should rapidly improve for the average man.
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 20:29:29

According to reports from the Center for Investigative Journalism (CPI in Spanish), the number of fatal disaster victims exceeds the official count.

In an interview between CPI reporter Omaya Sosa Pascual and Puerto Rico public safety secretary Héctor Pesquera last week, the government official admitted he believed far more to be dead.

But, he told Pascual, the federal government was working to add 360 additional spaces for bodies to the 295 available spaces at the Institute of Forensics Sciences, and that the U.S. Department of Health will send 41 forensic pathologists to Puerto Rico.

“There were at least several dozen additional victims, possibly hundreds,” Pascual reported, citing sources from nine hospitals, police, morgue directors and others in Puerto Rico.

Another official, health secretary Rafael Rodríguez-Mercado confirmed that at least three hospitals had notified him of additional victims. According to Pascual, hospital staff told the health secretary some people had buried their family members in mass graves “given the impossibility of communication and transportation due to María’s impact.”

“Everything in the government has collapsed,” Pascual told Vox. “Some of the people who work in the government lost their homes themselves and aren’t at work. So they can’t do death certificates. The dead can’t be documented because of all the logistics and legal aspects of declaring someone dead.”

But the Doctor’s Hospital and the Veterans Hospital told CPI media that the military had shown up to remove bodies at their institutions. At the Veterans Hospital, there were 26 corpses.

"I’m not going to hide any numbers. I’m not going to hide any data,” he said, and added that the process could take months.

link


When Pesquera was asked why the government insists on keeping the death toll at 16 nearly two weeks after the hurricane — and following multiple reports of additional victims — he said they have not added additional victims to the official list because death certificates from deaths that occurred during those days have yet to be released.

Pesquera, who was on the defensive in his answers on the subject, also acknowledged that there are still places without communication, and that it is possible that more people have died in those places and that the government still does not know it. He also acknowledged that there may be victims among the patients who were without support services, since 70% of the hospitals had to close due to Maria’s immediate impact.

“I absolutely agree,” he said in response to the CPI’s reporting.

Sources from nine hospitals, police and various mayors’ offices, told the CPI last week that the official death toll from Hurricane Maria was wrong and that there were at least several dozen additional victims, possibly hundreds.

The sources indicated that the morgues at many hospitals were at full capacity, information that was confirmed by Health Secretary Rafael Rodríguez-Mercado, who also said that at least three hospitals in the western area had notified him of seven additional hurricane victims and that there were reports of people who had buried relatives in mass graves given the impossibility of communication and transportation due to the storm. After that interview with the CPI, Rodríguez-Mercado stopped making public statements on the matter and his spokesman, Peter Quiñones, said all statements would be made by the governor’s Chief of Staff, Ramón Rosario.

When Pesquera was asked why the government insists on keeping the death toll at 16 nearly two weeks after the hurricane — and following multiple reports of additional victims — he said they have not added additional victims to the official list because death certificates from deaths that occurred during those days have yet to be released.

Like so many other services in Puerto Rico in the storm’s aftermath, the death registry system completely collapsed. Without the death certificates, the corpses could not be removed from hospital morgues.

Secretary Rodríguez-Mercado told the CPI last week that some employees had returned to work to begin emptying out hospital morgues. On Friday, a CPI source said that only 22 of the 42 Demographic Registrar’s offices were open and employees were certifying the deceased manually because, as with most of the island, they still did not have electricity or computer systems.

The source estimated that last week they certified more than 250 deaths.

link

These are MAINSTREAM news sources reporting this. To imply I am sourcing left-wing hate sites is absolute nonsense and just your own partisan crap.

Hundreds have died, and more continue to die. While Trump throws them paper towels, in a closely scripted, constructed media event.
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby Subjectivist » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 20:58:35

Cid_Yama wrote:
According to reports from the Center for Investigative Journalism (CPI in Spanish), the number of fatal disaster victims exceeds the official count.

In an interview between CPI reporter Omaya Sosa Pascual and Puerto Rico public safety secretary Héctor Pesquera last week, the government official admitted he believed far more to be dead.

But, he told Pascual, the federal government was working to add 360 additional spaces for bodies to the 295 available spaces at the Institute of Forensics Sciences, and that the U.S. Department of Health will send 41 forensic pathologists to Puerto Rico.

“There were at least several dozen additional victims, possibly hundreds,” Pascual reported, citing sources from nine hospitals, police, morgue directors and others in Puerto Rico.

Another official, health secretary Rafael Rodríguez-Mercado confirmed that at least three hospitals had notified him of additional victims. According to Pascual, hospital staff told the health secretary some people had buried their family members in mass graves “given the impossibility of communication and transportation due to María’s impact.”

“Everything in the government has collapsed,” Pascual told Vox. “Some of the people who work in the government lost their homes themselves and aren’t at work. So they can’t do death certificates. The dead can’t be documented because of all the logistics and legal aspects of declaring someone dead.”

But the Doctor’s Hospital and the Veterans Hospital told CPI media that the military had shown up to remove bodies at their institutions. At the Veterans Hospital, there were 26 corpses.

"I’m not going to hide any numbers. I’m not going to hide any data,” he said, and added that the process could take months.

link


When Pesquera was asked why the government insists on keeping the death toll at 16 nearly two weeks after the hurricane — and following multiple reports of additional victims — he said they have not added additional victims to the official list because death certificates from deaths that occurred during those days have yet to be released.

Pesquera, who was on the defensive in his answers on the subject, also acknowledged that there are still places without communication, and that it is possible that more people have died in those places and that the government still does not know it. He also acknowledged that there may be victims among the patients who were without support services, since 70% of the hospitals had to close due to Maria’s immediate impact.

“I absolutely agree,” he said in response to the CPI’s reporting.

Sources from nine hospitals, police and various mayors’ offices, told the CPI last week that the official death toll from Hurricane Maria was wrong and that there were at least several dozen additional victims, possibly hundreds.

The sources indicated that the morgues at many hospitals were at full capacity, information that was confirmed by Health Secretary Rafael Rodríguez-Mercado, who also said that at least three hospitals in the western area had notified him of seven additional hurricane victims and that there were reports of people who had buried relatives in mass graves given the impossibility of communication and transportation due to the storm. After that interview with the CPI, Rodríguez-Mercado stopped making public statements on the matter and his spokesman, Peter Quiñones, said all statements would be made by the governor’s Chief of Staff, Ramón Rosario.

When Pesquera was asked why the government insists on keeping the death toll at 16 nearly two weeks after the hurricane — and following multiple reports of additional victims — he said they have not added additional victims to the official list because death certificates from deaths that occurred during those days have yet to be released.

Like so many other services in Puerto Rico in the storm’s aftermath, the death registry system completely collapsed. Without the death certificates, the corpses could not be removed from hospital morgues.

Secretary Rodríguez-Mercado told the CPI last week that some employees had returned to work to begin emptying out hospital morgues. On Friday, a CPI source said that only 22 of the 42 Demographic Registrar’s offices were open and employees were certifying the deceased manually because, as with most of the island, they still did not have electricity or computer systems.

The source estimated that last week they certified more than 250 deaths.

link

These are MAINSTREAM news sources reporting this. To imply I am sourcing left-wing hate sites is absolute nonsense and just your own partisan crap.

Hundreds have died, and more continue to die. While Trump throws them paper towels, in a closely scripted, constructed media event.



Simple demographic averages would mean hundreds will have died out of the millions in total population. You can't reasonably attribute the death of elderly or sick people who would have died under any circumstances simply by the law of average to the hurricane death toll unless you are trying to make things look worse than expected.
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 21:56:14

Oh, please. Is that the best you can do? The island was crossed end to end by a Cat 4 hurricane. To believe there weren't hundreds of victims, could only be attributed to denial. Or more partisan crap.

You would think by now you would have stopped defending Trump from his own self-inflicted wounds.

The failure to respond immediately, dragging their feet, and making excuses, increased the death toll. Without a doubt. Just by common sense. Not much of which seems to be possessed by Trump or his supporters.
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 22:36:56

But you have no problem, Ibon, with right wing trolls spewing their hate in every thread. Did you correct cog when he flew a racist flag for years as his avatar? Of course you didn't. That is because you jumped on board with the same racist narrative.

You, like cog, believes anyone who voted for Trump or is a Republican conservative is God's gift to man. Your hatred against the left drips with everything you post on the subject. That shows your obvious bias...


(Fixed that for ya, cog :-D :P :razz: )

Really, though, Ibon, as Plant recently told me, don't let the bastards grind you down...and yeah, we're all pretty much bastards. But of course do what you need to do. Thanks for your posts and devotion. And of course being attacked from both sides (though mine was rather...sarcastic) means you must be doing something right, right? :)
Last edited by dohboi on Wed 04 Oct 2017, 23:41:10, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 23:15:30

Cid_Yama wrote:Oh, please. Is that the best you can do? The island was crossed end to end by a Cat 4 hurricane. To believe there weren't hundreds of victims, could only be attributed to denial. Or more partisan crap.

You would think by now you would have stopped defending Trump from his own self-inflicted wounds.

The failure to respond immediately, dragging their feet, and making excuses, increased the death toll. Without a doubt. Just by common sense. Not much of which seems to be possessed by Trump or his supporters.

Again Sid the normal death rate for the 3.5 million people in Puerto Rico is seventy per day meaning that in the fifteen days sense the storm hit over a thousand people were going to die anyway. Now the power is out and the road is blocked and your relative is dead. What are you going to do? Bury them of course. It is the tropics after all and bodies need to be in the ground within twenty four hours if no refrigeration is available. That does not make it mass graves nor is it the governments fault.
You really are losing it here Sid.
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby EdwinSm » Fri 06 Oct 2017, 06:48:23

Maybe if Tesla cars are not selling well enough :oops: this could come to his aid....

BBC wrote:Renewable energy entrepreneur Elon Musk says he could rebuild Puerto Rico's shattered electrical infrastructure with his solar energy technology.
......
On Twitter, Mr Musk said his technology, which powers several smaller islands, could be scaled up to work for Puerto Rico.
.......
The company says it has powered small islands, such as Ta'u in American Samoa. There, it installed a solar grid which can power the entire island and store enough electricity for three days without any sun.


There has been question of whether solar could stand up to hurricane so this comment in the report was interesting.

One flower grower, Hector Santiago, invested $300,000 (£230,000) in solar panels six years ago, Reuters reported this week.

"Everybody told me I was crazy because it was so expensive. Now I have power and they don't," he told the agency.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-41524220
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby baha » Fri 06 Oct 2017, 07:10:09

Sweet,
This is an opportunity to prove the capability and reliability of solar and batteries. We should do it just for the scientific results. If it works, we can all move to a tropical island and drink Mai Tai's :)

But seriously, here is proof of concept. My system is hurricane rated (110mph in my area) Even if some panels are broken, the rest will make power. In fact a shattered panel will continue to make power until it freezes and de-laminates, or falls apart. My wires are underground.

Let's talk about reliability...
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
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https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 06 Oct 2017, 14:40:51

baha wrote:
But seriously, here is proof of concept. My system is hurricane rated (110mph in my area) ...

Let's talk about reliability...


OK. Maria winds were up to 160-180 mph when they hit PR but you say your own Tesla system is rated to only 110 mph.

How difficult and how expensive would it be to upgrade it to withstand winds of 160-180 mph?

And—-is Tesla donating power walls and solar systems to PR? Because PR is bankrupt,


Cheers!

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---President Obama, 4/25/16
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby baha » Fri 06 Oct 2017, 15:36:51

Hi Plantagenet,
The wind rating is all about how deep and how much concrete is holding it down. My rear poles are in 5 foot deep concreted holes. The structure itself strong enough. But that is just the ground mounted panels. That doesn't help when the roof blows off. All my equipment is rated for outside mounting and will not be hurt by falling or blowing water. I might not have a roof but I would still have power :) I know how PEs think (Professional Engineers) I bet my system would handle 150 mph winds just fine.

I don't know if Tesla is donating, lots of people and businesses are. I bet Richard Branson will help out. Tesla needs to make money right now, so do I :)
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby GHung » Fri 06 Oct 2017, 16:09:39

baha wrote:Hi Plantagenet,
The wind rating is all about how deep and how much concrete is holding it down. My rear poles are in 5 foot deep concreted holes. The structure itself strong enough. But that is just the ground mounted panels. That doesn't help when the roof blows off. All my equipment is rated for outside mounting and will not be hurt by falling or blowing water. I might not have a roof but I would still have power :) I know how PEs think (Professional Engineers) I bet my system would handle 150 mph winds just fine.

I don't know if Tesla is donating, lots of people and businesses are. I bet Richard Branson will help out. Tesla needs to make money right now, so do I :)


Plant said; "OK. Maria winds were up to 160-180 mph when they hit PR but you say your own Tesla system is rated to only 110 mph. "

Just another typical case of solar being held to a higher standard. News Flash, Planty: Almost no infrastructure is going to survive 160-180 MPH winds. On the other hand, with enough warning, PV panels are easy to unplug, de-rack and move to safety, to be re-deployed after a storm. Try doing that with regular grid power.
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Fri 06 Oct 2017, 19:03:52

Ghung - "On the other hand, with enough warning, PV panels are easy to unplug, de-rack and move to safety, to be re-deployed after a storm.". Exactly my thought in particular for ground mounted panels. Could be handy to have some power on site to help fix your torn up home. LOL.
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 06 Oct 2017, 19:10:53

Wind pressure increases as the square.

Take a 1x1 foot sail. At 1knot it has 1 unit of pressure.
2 knots 4 units
3 knots 9 units
4 knots 16 units
Etc.
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby GHung » Fri 06 Oct 2017, 21:02:42

Newfie wrote:Wind pressure increases as the square.

Take a 1x1 foot sail. At 1knot it has 1 unit of pressure.
2 knots 4 units
3 knots 9 units
4 knots 16 units
Etc.


Actually:
The wind power increases with the cube of the wind speed. In other words: doubling the wind speed gives eight times the wind power.....
http://home.uni-leipzig.de/energy/ef/15.htm
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby baha » Sat 07 Oct 2017, 08:25:52

My gut tells me you are both right. The difference is pressure vs power. Converting the pressure into power is what adds the third exponential.
A Solar fuel spill is otherwise known as a sunny day!
The energy density of a tank of FF's doesn't matter if it's empty.

https://monitoringpublic.solaredge.com/solaredge-web/p/kiosk?guid=19844186-d749-40d6-b848-191e899b37db
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Re: Hurricane Maria

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 07 Oct 2017, 15:40:21

The point is BIG difference between 110 and 160.
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