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Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby Cid_Yama » Thu 05 Oct 2017, 17:27:15

we keep accumulating these denier sock puppets.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 18

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 06 Oct 2017, 14:52:13

Squilliam wrote: The climate argument simply gets stronger every year, but the problem really is that it was good enough 25 years ago to justify action.


The world actually did take action 25 years ago by setting up the UN process that led to the Kyoto Accords. The problem is Obama and other world leaders abandoned all the progress made since Kyoto and instead ratified the sham Paris Accords in 2015 that increases rather than decreases CO2 emissions and only made things worse

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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 06 Oct 2017, 16:23:01

Yes, P, Obama is the cause of every single evil everywhere in the world.

We get it, P.

Now can you give it a rest for a while?? :) :)
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 18

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 06 Oct 2017, 18:07:07

Plantagenet wrote:The problem is Obama...


It doesn't help that petro-state Alaskans such as you feel entitled to take recreational plane trips around the globe and then come home, park their asses behind the keyboard, and conveniently point their fingers elsewhere.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 09 Oct 2017, 14:54:30

http://www.cnn.com/2017/10/09/politics/ ... index.html

Pruitt announces withdrawal of Clean Power Plan
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 09 Oct 2017, 16:12:30

Plantagenet wrote:I asked a friend who is a Ph.d. what her opinion is, and she didn't think any heat energy was "used up" by a hurricane. The hurricane is simply redistributing the energy from the warm ocean to the atmosphere and the land. Yes there is friction when hurricane force winds come up against trees or buildings....but that friction creates heat which in turns warms the objects involved...i.e. the heat energy in the hurricane does't "disappear".

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Applying a force which moves one object past another creates friction which creates heat energy.


Not quite buying that assessment. It takes a tremendous amount of energy to tear a house to pieces and fling it about. If the pieces of the house were blown to a position up hill they would be said to have higher potential energy from their position. The best example of this is the water cycle where solar energy causes evaporation from the oceans up int storm clouds and causes rain to fall in the mountains filling streams and rivers with water having hydro power potential energy. Add more solar power and the cycle goes faster, a hurricane goes really fast and moves a lot of rainwater to the mountains. But perhaps the only loss that counts on global warming is radiation back out into space but even here large hurricanes must have a useful effect. The winds surrounding the eye are spiraling upwards sucking warm air coming in from the sea surface and fling it out at the top of the cloud layer where it warms the upper atmosphere. This warmer upper atmosphere can then radiate out at a higher rate then before the storm happened in spite of the green house effect of CO2 and methane in the atmosphere. The clouds have to cool for the rain to fall out of them and that heat that cools from them must go up and out.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby baha » Mon 09 Oct 2017, 16:38:30

Energy is conserved...the only way to get rid of it is entropy (which ain't much) or sending it somewhere else (outer space). Or store in a chemical like oil and bury it.

A hurricane takes a point source of heat energy and spreads it as far as it can. I suppose some extra is lost out the top into space but not much. There is entropy involved in smashing things to bits :)
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 09 Oct 2017, 17:52:05

baha wrote:Energy is conserved...the only way to get rid of it is entropy (which ain't much) or sending it somewhere else (outer space). Or store in a chemical like oil and bury it.

A hurricane takes a point source of heat energy and spreads it as far as it can. I suppose some extra is lost out the top into space but not much. There is entropy involved in smashing things to bits :)
I have to argue with your "(which ain't much)" The solar radiation in has always been in complete balance with the sum of the radiation out plus that amount sequestered in carbon sinks, wood and other plant matter plus new coal peat or oil beds. That is a balance of two huge numbers not "this ain't much". An increase in the amount of radiation incoming will raise the temperature of the upper atmosphere to the point that the radiation out again balances the radiation in. The change in the makeup of the atmosphere's components has changed the amount of radiation that escapes at any given temperature so that a higher average temperature is now required to re-obtain a balance even though no increase in incoming energy has happened.
If hurricanes move heat from the ocean surface to the upper atmosphere it will reduce the effects of global warming on the ground by speeding the passage of the excess energy up and out.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 09 Oct 2017, 19:34:33

Sure, some heat goes into space, but of course lots of heat is always going into space.

And the amount of added energy we are already fire-hosing into the system is in the order of a half million or so A-bombs every single day.

So we'd need a hell of a lot of hurricanes pretty much constantly increasing the already huge amount of energy going into space to make any kind of significant effect on this process. But perhaps dis or someone with significant chops at crunching these kinds of numbers could give us a clearer idea of whether there is a significant effect here.

Mostly hurricanes transport heat from the equator towards the poles.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 09 Oct 2017, 19:54:52

dohboi wrote:
Mostly hurricanes transport heat from the equator towards the poles.

Where it can radiate out during the long dark polar winter.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby dohboi » Mon 09 Oct 2017, 19:57:13

"polar winter" which is the most rapidly warming place/time on the planet!
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby baha » Tue 10 Oct 2017, 05:06:39

I meant Entropy ain't much...It's been a long time since I studied it but energy lost thru entropy is miniscule. It's kind of like Humpty-Dumpty...entropy is the 'cannot put it back together again' part. If you need entropy to solve your problems you will have to wait for the end of the universe.

Equilibrium is another story and is in fact the one that is playing out. We have changed the balence point of energy-in vs energy-out. CO2 slows heat radiation to space so the earth will keep getting hotter until it is able to reach a new equilibrium.

Hot places are more effective at radiating heat than cold places. By spreading the heat over the globe with wind you are making it harder for it to radiate into space. Instead of one spot getting hotter and radiating lots more. The whole planet gets warmer and radiates a little more.

The whole planet gets warmer until we reach a new equilibrium, which will never happen as long as we keep changing the atmospheric chemistry. Heat is energy, Hurricanes dissipate energy. Storms, floods, winds, waves...these are all ways to dissipate energy.

Take note...Dissipate does not mean disappear, it means spread it evenly over a wide area.

So as the energy/heat of the earth goes up so does the need to dissipate it evenly. Therefore more and stronger storms carrying more water.

I am not an atmospheric scientist. This is just a basic physics view of the way it works. I could be wrong :)
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 10 Oct 2017, 11:57:04

dohboi wrote:"polar winter" which is the most rapidly warming place/time on the planet!

But is just as dark and starlit as it ever was especially at high altitude.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby Revi » Tue 10 Oct 2017, 13:23:11

I think it's like the world is trying to tell Trump and his pals something.

They pull out of the Paris Climate Agreement, and it was like Gaia was slapping them in the face with hurricanes Harvey, Irma, Maria and Nate.

It's like she's saying "You want to do that, here's a little reminder of who's really in charge!" "You like Florida? The Virgin Islands?"

Yesterday it was announced that Pruitt was getting rid of the Clean Power plan.

Sure enough, instant Karma.

"You like that wine country? Napa Valley? Well here it goes!"

It's not nice to fool Mother Nature!
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 10 Oct 2017, 17:58:21

And now Cal is on fire!

A point about the tropics...the atmosphere is generally quite moist in much of the tropics up to high altitudes, so heat conducts up that column of water vapor up into the upper atmosphere where it can be radiated into space. So it is not necessarily true that the poles are always the most efficient place to (conduct, then) radiate heat into space from the surface.

Anyway, that is my meager understanding, but others better read on the subject should pitch in.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 10 Oct 2017, 19:36:26

dohboi wrote:And now Cal is on fire!

A point about the tropics...the atmosphere is generally quite moist in much of the tropics up to high altitudes, so heat conducts up that column of water vapor up into the upper atmosphere where it can be radiated into space. So it is not necessarily true that the poles are always the most efficient place to (conduct, then) radiate heat into space from the surface.

Anyway, that is my meager understanding, but others better read on the subject should pitch in.

I'm not sure of the actual numbers. The poles with their seasonal long winter out flow vs. the larger surface of the globe with inflow each day balanced each night by the rotation of the Earth.
That the prevailing winds circulate from the equator towards the poles tells us that the excess heat exits from near the poles during their winter transit but what that quantity is or if it is growing or staying static in the face of growing world temperatures is hard to determine.
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 10 Oct 2017, 20:41:22

I think it's pretty clear that neither of us really know what we're talking about here, so I'll wait for better informed posters to chime in. :) :)
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby Revi » Wed 11 Oct 2017, 13:12:18

There's a lot of heat out there. California has been hot and dry, the tropics have been much more active and even here in Maine it's been so warm lately that I forgot that you usually need a sweater this time of year!
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby Revi » Thu 12 Oct 2017, 06:48:36

I was thinking about this year, and the hurricanes we've had. If you take the first letters of the ones that have hit the US you get Harvey, Irma and Maria. Then take Nate and Ophelia and you get HIM NO! Is Gaia trying to tell us something?

Along with the unstoppable fires in California and throughout the west it's been a big year for Trump and his administration. It appears that nature doesn't like him much...
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Re: Global Warming / Climate Changes Pt. 19

Unread postby vox_mundi » Thu 12 Oct 2017, 10:24:51

Geologic Evidence Suggests Ominous Prospects for Hurricanes on a Warming Earth

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http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... ihub#f0030

While strong seasonal hurricanes have devastated many of the Caribbean and Bahamian islands this year, geologic studies on several of these islands illustrate that much more extreme conditions existed in the past. A new analysis published in Marine Geology shows that the limestone islands of the Bahamas and Bermuda experienced climate changes that were even more extreme than historical events. In the interest of our future world, scientists must seek to understand the complexities of linked natural events and field observations that are revealed in the geologic record of past warmer climates.

In Bermuda and the Bahamas, the geology of the last interglacial (LIG; approximately 120,000 years ago) is exquisitely preserved in nearly pure carbonate sedimentary rocks. A record of superstorms and changing sea levels is exposed in subtidal, beach, storm, and dune deposits on multiple islands. Extensive studies by the authors over the past decades on these islands have documented stratigraphic, sedimentologic, and geomorphic evidence of major oceanic and climatic disruptions at the close of the last interglacial.

Dr. Paul J. Hearty, a retired Associate Professor at the University of North Carolina at Wilmington, and Dr. Blair. R. Tormey, a Coastal Research Scientist at Western Carolina University conducted an invited review of published findings. It demonstrates that during a global climate transition in the late last interglacial, also known as marine isotope substage 5e (MIS 5e), abrupt multi-meter sea-level changes occurred. Concurrently, coastlines of the Bahamas and Bermuda were impacted by massive storms generated in the North Atlantic Ocean, resulting in a unique trilogy of wave-transported deposits: megaboulders, chevron-shaped, storm-beach ridges, and runup deposits on high dune ridges.

While perhaps more mundane than the megaboulders (found only locally on Eleuthera), the sedimentological structures found within chevron ridge and runup deposits across islands throughout the Bahamas and Bermuda point to frequent and repeated inundation by powerful storm waves, in some locations leaving storm deposits tens of meters above sea level.
During the last interglacial, sea levels were about 3-9 meters higher than they are now. The geologic evidence indicates that the higher sea-levels were accompanied by intense "superstorms," which deposited giant wave-transported boulders at the top of cliffed coastlines, formed chevron-shaped, storm beach ridges in lowland areas, and left wave runup deposits on older dunes more than 30 meters above sea level. These events occurred at a time of only slightly warmer global climate and CO2 (about 275 ppm) was much lower than today.

The authors emphasize "the LIG record reveals that strong climate forcing is not required to yield major impacts on the ocean and ice caps." In our industrial world, rapidly increasing atmospheric CO2 has surpassed 400 ppm, levels not achieved since the Pliocene era about 3 million years ago, while global temperature has increased nearly 1 °C since the 1870s. Today, ice sheets are melting, sea level is rising, oceans are warming, and weather events are becoming more extreme.

Drs. Hearty and Tormey conclude that with the greatly increased anthropogenic CO2 forcing at rates unmatched in nature, except perhaps during global extinction events, dramatic change is certain. They caution that, "Our global society is producing a climate system that is racing forward out of humanity's control into an uncertain future. If we seek to understand the non-anthropogenic events of the last interglaciation, some of the consequences of our unchecked forward speed may come more clearly into focus...a message from the past; a glimpse into the future."

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P.J. Hearty et al. Sea-level change and superstorms; geologic evidence from the last interglacial (MIS 5e) in the Bahamas and Bermuda offers ominous prospects for a warming Earth, Marine Geology (2017).
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