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Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 02 Oct 2017, 17:55:09

With tight-shale there is no structural trap, and so each fract job creates its own reservoir . . . in the original source rock. And then all sorts of fracting materials are injected into the new reservoir. That is the definition of tertiary.
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Mon 02 Oct 2017, 20:24:55

With tight-shale there is no structural trap, and so each fract job creates its own reservoir . . . in the original source rock. And then all sorts of fracting materials are injected into the new reservoir. That is the definition of tertiary.


No it isn't you idiot. You think you can make up your own definition and everyone will take your word for it.
The definition of tertiary recovery is exactly what I told you....it is alterations made to the oil viscosity/wettability etc via thermal or chemicals. The frack does not create its own reservoir. By definition the reservoir is where the porosity is which is in the shale (shale porosities are much higher than conventional reservoirs) all the frac does is help permeability communication of that reservoir to the wellbore. As I said the materials added do not create or alter the reservoir, they open up a conduit and that is it. If you are not injecting fluids continuously throughout the production stream you are not in secondary or tertiary recovery you are in primary. It is that simple and there should be no argument here if you bothered to read something other than comic books.
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 02 Oct 2017, 21:26:43

rockdoc123 wrote:
With tight-shale there is no structural trap, and so each fract job creates its own reservoir . . . in the original source rock. And then all sorts of fracting materials are injected into the new reservoir. That is the definition of tertiary.


No it isn't you idiot. You think you can make up your own definition and everyone will take your word for it.
The definition of tertiary recovery is exactly what I told you....it is alterations made to the oil viscosity/wettability etc via thermal or chemicals.

Guar Beans and Hydraulic Fracturing

"Powder made from the bean of a relatively unknown plant grown in India and Pakistan can quickly turn water into a very thick gel. The beans are typically used to thicken sauces and processed foods such as ice cream and ketchup. Now, drilling companies who need high-viscosity water to extract oil and natural gas from tight rock formations are buying up guar beans as fast as they are grown."

rockdoc123 wrote:The frack does not create its own reservoir. By definition the reservoir is where the porosity is which is in the shale (shale porosities are much higher than conventional reservoirs) all the frac does is help permeability communication of that reservoir to the wellbore.

As I said the materials added do not create or alter the reservoir, they open up a conduit and that is it. If you are not injecting fluids continuously throughout the production stream you are not in secondary or tertiary recovery you are in primary. It is that simple and there should be no argument here if you bothered to read something other than comic books.

Multi-stage fracts inject fluids many times. Not continually like THAI(heat) and SAGH . . . but often enough that you'd be hard pressed to consider it a primary or secondary production system. Call it 'secondary-and-a-half' production if it makes you comfortable. :)
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 10:14:26

"Powder made from the bean of a relatively unknown plant grown in India and Pakistan can quickly turn water into a very thick gel. The beans are typically used to thicken sauces and processed foods such as ice cream and ketchup. Now, drilling companies who need high-viscosity water to extract oil and natural gas from tight rock formations are buying up guar beans as fast as they are grown."


Non non et non. Not even close. The “high viscosity water” injected is to aid in the frack nothing more. It is not intended to alter the oil nor would it have any effect even if it was, given the point of contact is small (within the fracture and not into the pore space) and the frack fluid is largely recovered.

Multi-stage fracts inject fluids many times. Not continually like THAI(heat) and SAGH . . . but often enough that you'd be hard pressed to consider it a primary or secondary production system. Call it 'secondary-and-a-half' production if it makes you comfortable. 


Jesus why don’t you stick to things you at least know a little bit about? A mult-stage frack is done one after the other. I know, I’ve been out on site when they were performed ( a 7 stage high volume sand frac in one case). Even the large mult stage fracks are conducted in terms of a few hours. The fluid from those fracks does not penetrate far into the shale reservoir, It increases pore fluid pressure, creates a fracture and pore fluid pressure immediately decreases after which the fracture would collapse if sand were not pumped in to keep it open. It does not penetrate into the reservoir where it could contact the vast majority of oil. Most of that injected fluid is recovered. It is neither miscible with the oil nor is it hot nor does it have any chemical properties that would alter the oil. In fact when choosing a frack fluid operators purposefully select fluids that will have no affect on the oil (compatibility test) as they do not want the chance of an emulsion forming or alteration of the reservoir wettability.

You have really made a fool of yourself here, I guess it isn’t surprising you’ve fallen head over heels on the ETP BS. But don’t believe me heres a paper:

Sheng, James. (2015). Enhanced oil recovery in shale reservoirs by gas injection. Journal of Natural Gas Science and Engineering. 22. . 10.1016/j.jngse.2014.12.002

The current available technique to produce shale oil and gas condensate is through primary depletion using horizontal wells with multiple transverse fractures. The oil recovery factor is only a few percent. There is a big prize to be claimed in terms of enhanced oil recovery (EOR). Because gas price is low and oil price is high, maximizing liquid oil production from gas condensate reservoirs becomes shale producers' top interest.This paper provides the status of enhanced oil recovery (EOR) in shale oil and gas condensate reservoirs by gas injection. It starts with the discussion of possible EOR options in shale reservoirs. For the gas injection option, the huff and puff mode is compared with the gas flooding mode. Different modes of water injection in shale oil reservoirs are also compared. The discussion and comparison show that gas injection is more feasible in shale reservoirs than waterflooding and any other EOR methods. The rest of the paper focuses on review of gas injection in shale reservoirs, which covers the following.


so take away…..simple frack and production of shale is primary depletion. EOR methods (or secondary to tertiary recovery) require continuous injection of gas or fluid. In the case of huff and puff they inject steam at high rates for several days, wait for a couple of weeks and then produce the well, in the case of gas injections they have injection wells which are fraced and undergo continuous injection of gas which creates a miscible fluid with the oil and it is produced at another well.
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 11:40:51

Doc - You just can't stop himself from trying to teach those damn pigs to roller skate, can you? LOL.

But while we're at it: that little bean used to make that magical guar gum has been a mainstay of frac'ng for decades. Just as it has been helping Whataburger thicken its shakes. LOL.
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 12:16:55

Tight-shale hydraulic fracting is clearly neither a primary nor secondary production. It is not gas/water driven, the oil oozes out of the new pore and drips into new well bore. Some would argue that the initial pressure explosion is not the driver effect but it has been noted that the pressure differential does linger and is responsible for the drive. When that differential gives out after months/few years . . . So actually it is the opposite of that. It's a new kind of production . . . gravity driven. That's why it expires after a few years.
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 16:18:37

Tight-shale hydraulic fracting is clearly neither a primary nor secondary production. It is not gas/water driven, the oil oozes out of the new pore and drips into new well bore. Some would argue that the initial pressure explosion is not the driver effect but it has been noted that the pressure differential does linger and is responsible for the drive. When that differential gives out after months/few years . . . So actually it is the opposite of that. It's a new kind of production . . . gravity driven. That's why it expires after a few years.


Good God....the stupid, it hurts. There is almost no shale production from low GOR oils. They flow because of gas depletion you idiot. The frack does not create a “pressure explosion” it simply increases pore fluid pressure to the point at which the rock strength is exceeded and a single point failure occurs (hardly an explosion and on microseismic is pretty small) something that my good friends at Texas A&M (Rockman’s alma mater) had been doing in laboratory experiments since the 50’s which allows for predictive work done in fracking. The pressure differential that causes flow to occur is because the gas charged oil in the shale is at a higher pressure (as predicted by pore fluid pressure theory) than the fluid in the well bore (fluids flow in the direction of an existing pressure drop) and there is suddenly a conduit (the sand propped fracture) to the lower pressure borehole column of drilling/completion fluid. In many cases because higher rates are required operators put either a progressive cavity pump or an electrical submersible pump on the well in order to increase the pressure drop. And your incredibly naive if not completely stupid comment on gravity driven production is laughable. The reason why shale production takes the path of initial steeper hyperbolic decline followed by a long period of slower exponential decline is because the high rates are a consequence of drainage of the propped fractures which have hundred to darcies of permeability and as that oil is depleted there is a long slow process by which the fracture is continuously filled from the microcracks and matrix where the permeability is orders of magnitude lower. This was predicted in theory by Terry Engelder (who obtained his PhD at Texas A&M in rock mechanics) and has been shown in countless wells to be the case.

And once again because nothing that is happening in the fracking of a well has anything to do with altering chemical or physical properties of the actual oil or fluid it is by definition Primary recovery. No matter what kind of nonsense you try to come up with this fact is not altered.
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Tue 03 Oct 2017, 21:09:24

Doc - I'm wondering what will come first: you maxing out with the frustration or the pig getting irreversibly pissed off. LOL.
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 10:19:18

I taught at university so there is a certain amount of irritable patience built into my DNA. Mind you the youngsters I taught back then at least listened, they may not have understood but they certainly didn't make up crazy hypothesizes of why things happen. Pstarr appears to be the king of idiots. Normally you would be happy to deal with royalty....not so much in this case.
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 10:26:29

rockdoc123 wrote:Pstarr appears to be the king of idiots. Normally you would be happy to deal with royalty....not so much in this case.


He should remember that next time he presumes to call others trolls.
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 10:50:42

So are any of you willing to deny that upwards of dozens of chemicals are introduced into the tight-shale structure before the petroleum is removed?
gelling and foaming agents to help to create desired fluid rheology, to create fracture volume and area, and to transport the proppant material;

friction reducers to reduce the pressured needed to pump fluid into the wellbore;

surfactants to optimize hydrocarbon removal by minimizing water oil-wetting of the rock surface;

crosslinkers to enhance the ability of the gelling agent to transport the proppant material;

breakers to force the gelling agent to break down into a less viscous fluid to aid fluid recovery later in the process;

pH buffers to maintain the fracturing fluid in the correct pH range for optimum rheology;

biocides to prevent the growth of bacteria in the well;

corrosion inhibitors to prevent degradation of the steel well casing;

scale inhibitors to control the precipitation of certain carbonate and sulfate materials;

iron control chemicals to inhibit precipitation of iron compounds by keeping them in a soluble form; and

clay protection chemicals to minimize clay damage to the formation from clay swelling or migration of fine particles.
Most/many necessary for the movement of the petroleum to the surface. The definition of tertiary production.

Or that such chemical injection is defined as a tertiary methods: "Thermal injection, steam flooding, fire flooding, chemical injection, polymer flooding, microbial injection, Liquid carbon dioxide superfluids, Water-Alternating-Gas (WAG), Plasma-Pulse"

Wiki page on 'Enhanced oil recovery' (Tertiary)
The injection of various chemicals, usually as dilute solutions, have been used to aid mobility and the reduction in surface tension. Injection of alkaline or caustic solutions into reservoirs with oil that have organic acids naturally occurring in the oil will result in the production of soap that may lower the interfacial tension enough to increase production.[12][13] Injection of a dilute solution of a water-soluble polymer to increase the viscosity of the injected water can increase the amount of oil recovered in some formations. Dilute solutions of surfactants such as petroleum sulfonates or biosurfactants such as rhamnolipids may be injected to lower the interfacial tension or capillary pressure that impedes oil droplets from moving through a reservoir. Special formulations of oil, water and surfactant, microemulsions, can be particularly effective in this. Application of these methods is usually limited by the cost of the chemicals and their adsorption and loss onto the rock of the oil containing formation. In all of these methods the chemicals are injected into several wells and the production occurs in other nearby wells.
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 11:18:09

pstarr wrote:So are any of you willing to deny that upwards of dozens of chemicals are introduced into the tight-shale structure before the petroleum is removed?


Why is it significant one way or the other? If it works, it works, end of story.
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 11:25:30

asg70 wrote:
pstarr wrote:So are any of you willing to deny that upwards of dozens of chemicals are introduced into the tight-shale structure before the petroleum is removed?


Why is it significant one way or the other? If it works, it works, end of story.

It's significant because it is what is being discussed here. Before you arrived.

Asgy, you are like a child with an over-active hand. You wave it, demand entry into a discussion and then contribute with insults and stupid questions. Do your homework. See if rockdoc might be willing to dig up his Circa-1960 Petroleum 101 class notes? Then you may ask stupid questions.
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 15:22:23

Most/many necessary for the movement of the petroleum to the surface. The definition of tertiary production


No, it is not the definitional of tertiary production. As I pointed out that is a continual injection of heat or chemicals into the reservoir to alter the physical or chemical behavior of the oil. Frack fluids do not do this. In fact, frack fluids have very little contact with oil. Once the fracture is completed and propped the produced fluid is first recovered frack fluid and second oil/gas. There is very little frack fluid that remains in the formed crack, it is largely recovered within a couple of days of the first production. As a consequence, it has no interaction chemically or physically with the oil. As I pointed out this is the last thing an operator wants. The frack fluid must be compatible with the formation fluid (oil and gas) otherwise there is a danger of destroying permeability in the reservoir.

Or that such chemical injection is defined as a tertiary methods: "Thermal injection, steam flooding, fire flooding, chemical injection, polymer flooding, microbial injection, Liquid carbon dioxide superfluids, Water-Alternating-Gas (WAG), Plasma-Pulse"


Look you dense twit, this is not the same chemicals as used in EOR floods. When they inject for tertiary recovery (EOR) the whole point is continuous injection over the life of the well and each and everything mentioned here is for the purpose of altering the physical or chemical behavior of the oil. Thermal and steam lower the viscosity of high viscosity oils, fire flooding does the same, chemical injection as meant here is to create a miscible flood. The chemicals used in a miscible flood are not anything like that used in a frack. Using chemicals that are miscible with oil in a frack would defeat the purpose of whats trying to be accomplished entirely. Polymer floods are also used to create a miscible flood, microbial injection is used to break down oils and lower viscosity, liquid CO2 creates a miscible flood and WAG is a step up from a water flood, continuous altering injection of water then gas to increase sweep efficiency (pushing the oil in front of an immiscible flood front).

Once again the fluids injected in a frack are made up in such a manner to decrease friction of the fluid so it is easier to inject and hence allows for the deepest penetration possible as the frack is created. They are designed specifically not to affect the oil in any manner and are made up to have no physical or chemical reaction with the reservoir fluids (which would be detrimental to the well). In Tertiary production, fluids are made up specifically to alter the physical or chemical behavior of the oil and those fluids are injected continuously throughout the remaining production life of a well. In contrast, fluids introduced during a frack are in contact with the formation for only a few hours, at formation temperature and with benign chemical additives (as an example the term surfactant when applied to a frack fluid is essentially dish soap).

Can you please stop this nonsense. YOu are entirely wrong....there is no room for debate on this point. At some point it makes sense to quit digging yourself deeper, you look stupid enough as it is.
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 19:28:19

pstarr wrote:With tight-shale there is no structural trap, and so each fract job creates its own reservoir . . . in the original source rock.


Just...stop. I realize you don't even care how silly you look at this point, but hydraulic fracturing doesn't create reservoir rock. And just because YOU are dumb enough to say it means there is another doomer around somewhere that will read it, and REPEAT this kind of nonsense. Like we need to clone morons in this world...
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 19:41:55

Old definitions, new expensive technology that cost $70/barrel in an economic regime that only supports $50 barrel. I'd call that Quaternary :)
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 20:17:13

Old definitions, new expensive technology that cost $70/barrel


Not old definitions dipshit....they are current definitions that have never, ever changed. But you wouldn't know that given you actually know nothing about the subject.

Cost $70/bbl? How stupid are you? The break-even price in parts of the Permian is below $30/bbl, and in parts of the EagleFord etc. Your claim is so far up your backside that is likely it will never see the light of day.
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 20:59:58

Sure, Permian for $30 and Vaca for $10 lol
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 04 Oct 2017, 21:02:26

Sure, Permian for $30 and Vaca for $10 lol


It would be useful if you educated yourself on what the actual economics of these plays are rather than continue to play the fool. Realize that playing something you actually are is an easy gain.
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Re: Peak Oil.. Who are you to say?

Unread postby AdamB » Fri 06 Oct 2017, 12:49:23

rockdoc123 wrote: Pstarr appears to be the king of idiots. Normally you would be happy to deal with royalty....not so much in this case.


Your missionary work is appreciated rocdoc, but pstarr is a zealot and facts, reality, history, hell physics and math, none of it matters. He believes. Nothing else is required.
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