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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 7

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby eclipse » Tue 11 Jul 2017, 18:58:12

vtsnowedin wrote:Your still missing the point that the car will be connected to a central dispatching computer and will have the entire trip plotted out from the start including any transfers. If you have a real range of 200 miles you might get to a smoothly running system with charging stations and parking garages 100 miles apart which if you think about it would be covered if you put one at every airport in America and another downtown in each sizable city. Look to the current rental fleets to be the first to switch over.

No, I entirely accept that point. In fact, it is the fundamental foundation and assumption behind my point which is this frees us up from worrying about the chicken and egg fuelling / charging problem. If it's too hard, I simply can't be bothered.
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New diesel and petrol vehicles to be banned from 2040 in UK

Unread postby dolanbaker » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 02:05:06

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40723581
New diesel and petrol cars and vans will be banned in the UK from 2040 in a bid to tackle air pollution, the government is set to announce.

Ministers will also unveil a £255m fund to help councils tackle emissions from diesel vehicles, as part of a £3bn package of spending on air quality.

The government will later publish its clean air strategy, favouring electric cars, before a High Court deadline.

That means that manufacturers have just over 20 years to shift their entire production to EVs.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-40718892
A fully electric version of the Mini will be built at the Cowley plant in Oxford, BMW has said.

The carmaker said the model would go into production in 2019, with Oxford the main "production location" for the Mini three-door model.

However, the electric motor will be built in Germany before being shipped to Cowley for assembly.

BMW said it had "neither sought nor received" any reassurances from the UK on post-Brexit trading arrangements.

Last year, the government faced questions about the "support and assurances" given to Nissan before the company announced that new versions of its Qashqai and X-Trail would be made in the UK.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 06:21:58

I took a ride in a Toyota Avalon hybrid this weekend. A very nice car my buddy uses in his livery business, Logan airport pickups etc. It gets 40 mpg and the ICE kicks on so smoothly you don't notice it unless your standing still. List for $43K but he is making money with it daily. He is phasing out his older Chevy suburban and Lincoln town cars and moving to all hybrids. :)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 09:32:47

One point about hybrids: they are not EVs. Hybrid powertrains save 24% to 28% of the fuel burned by their pure ICE equivalents, but still are 100% liquid-fuelled vehicles, and are relatively heavy because of two powertrains plus a battery. The extra weight does adversely effect handling, tire life, ride comfort, etc.

Plug-in hybrids can be used as pure EVs if you have a short commute, and will still serve as a long distance vehicle when required by burning a tank of gas. But plug-in hybrid batteries are larger and heavier than simple hybrid batteries.

Real EVs never burn a drop of fuel, and are as green as their power source. They can be run on 100% renewables, or 100% coal-fired grid power. The addition of a dedicated solar kiosk for charging a Tesla S at your home can increase the cost of an already expensive car by 50%.

Yes, I know this is basic stuff, but some of the comparisons made in this thread have ignored such information.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby GASMON » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 10:25:44

All electric cars in UK probably ain't gonna happen.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07 ... t-unveils/

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 11:20:45

KaiserJeep wrote:One point about hybrids: they are not EVs. Hybrid powertrains save 24% to 28% of the fuel burned by their pure ICE equivalents, but still are 100% liquid-fuelled vehicles, and are relatively heavy because of two powertrains plus a battery. The extra weight does adversely effect handling, tire life, ride comfort, etc.

That's previous generation(s).

For new, popular, successful (in reviews, and I'm betting in the marketplace if Toyota and Honda will actually MAKE and MARKET them to compete with the pure ICE's -- they didn't really try in the past), look at the 2018 Toyota Camry hybrids or the 2017 Honda Accord.

My 2017 Camry gets real world city (lots of traffic lights, etc) MPG of 20. Toyota and Honda are talking real world MPG of 40+ to 50ish MPG for these, and reviewers are confirming those are reasonable estimates for real world driving. That's on the order of a 100% improvement. For both cars, reviwers are saying the ride/drive is MUCH better, so you're not giving up much. For the redesigned Camry, no trunk room is used for the battery, so that issue is gone with proper design.

I think it's a BIG mistake to underestimate the viability of non-plug-in hybrids as an effective transitional vehicle. I'n hoping that Volvo signaling no more traditional ICE's produced by them from 2019 on (only hybrids and BEV's) is a sign of things to come.

Surely a vehicle fleet getting something like double the mileage during transition for city driving has to be a HUGE improvement while the BEV fleet and infrastructure is built out in coming decades.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 11:24:22

GASMON wrote:All electric cars in UK probably ain't gonna happen.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07 ... t-unveils/

Gas

"Just imagine the joy of having to trail 800m of extension leads from your bedroom window to your car to charge it over night because you couldn't park right outside your house. Then imagine the other 240 car owners living in a tower block all having to do the same or the 50 people living in you street doing this."

As usual, the commentors have more common sense than government drones
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 11:33:51

GASMON wrote:All electric cars in UK probably ain't gonna happen.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07 ... t-unveils/

Gas

Or, more accurately: it isn't going to be without some effort and cost.

That doesn't mean it can't, or shouldn't be done.

And if the goal isn't reached and they only get to, say, 80% or 90% EV's, that's still a HELL of a big dent in the problem.

And seeing "reasons" like some people don't want more wind farms (boo hoo) isn't at all convincing to anyone outside the hard core AGW denialist group, IMO. And "reasons" like more charging stations are needed. So? In 23 years, more (lots more) can't be built?

For one obvious point, once the transition is well under way, there's no reason gas stations can't convert some (or all, in time) pumps from petrol/diesel to be charging stations. Some government incentive to help that along would be helpful, but not required. In time, economics will do the trick.

It's like the naysayers aren't even trying.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 12:06:43

GASMON wrote:All electric cars in UK probably ain't gonna happen.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07 ... t-unveils/

Gas


New power stations aren't a requirement, as we've discovered with renewable buildout in other places. But California is trying some sort of mandate like this as well, the key point being that the world went from "Who Killed The Electric Car" to the EV roaring back because of peak oil a decade ago,and then we get the failure and cheating of diesel manufacturers, and presto!! The world changes just that easily. Most consumers don't even need those stinky, icky liquid fuels anyway, so let us hear it for the SECOND world changing event we can attribute to peak oil, the first being glut and low prices, and now, structural replacement for even the need of the first!

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 12:10:23

KaiserJeep wrote:One point about hybrids: they are not EVs. Hybrid powertrains save 24% to 28% of the fuel burned by their pure ICE equivalents, but still are 100% liquid-fuelled vehicles, and are relatively heavy because of two powertrains plus a battery. The extra weight does adversely effect handling, tire life, ride comfort, etc.
..........
.
All true enough except perhaps ride comfort. The Avalon is a luxury sedan and rides like a dream. 40 mpg in city stop and go traffic for a full sized sedan is not to be sneezed at. It is here available now and not just a promise from Elan Musk. I would not want one for the dirt roads of Vermont but for Boston or any comparable traffic nightmare is very competitive.
If we could double mpg on the entire fleet we could drop gasoline consumption from ten to five million barrels a day and stop importing any Mideast oil.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby AdamB » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 12:12:04

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
GASMON wrote:All electric cars in UK probably ain't gonna happen.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07 ... t-unveils/

Gas

Or, more accurately: it isn't going to be without some effort and cost.


Nothing of value can.

outcast_searcher wrote:That doesn't mean it can't, or shouldn't be done.


Absolutely. We'll know that even the dullards have gotten it when pstarr one day announces that he is done with his CO2 polluting ways, and has collected something that doesn't pollute.

outcast_searcher wrote:For one obvious point, once the transition is well under way, there's no reason gas stations can't convert some (or all, in time) pumps from petrol/diesel to be charging stations. Some government incentive to help that along would be helpful, but not required. In time, economics will do the trick.

It's like the naysayers aren't even trying.


Gas stations? One of these sits by an Arbys fast food restaurant, in the middle of nowhere. Limon Colorado to be exact, noticed it while filling up a normal ICE, couldn't figure out what it was, so I went and looked. Don't need no gas station, just need one of these near an Arbies for a sandwich, and a gas station for a bathroom and fountain drinks and presto! The world has already changed, but you don't even know it unless you visit Limon and see it for yourself.

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 12:40:43

AdamB wrote:Gas stations? One of these sits by an Arbys fast food restaurant, in the middle of nowhere. Limon Colorado to be exact, noticed it while filling up a normal ICE, couldn't figure out what it was, so I went and looked. Don't need no gas station, just need one of these near an Arbies for a sandwich, and a gas station for a bathroom and fountain drinks and presto! The world has already changed, but you don't even know it unless you visit Limon and see it for yourself.
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Tesla, "Charging ahead and leading the way!"

More Electric Vehicles Needed to Spur Electric Vehicle Development
But even with this local support, EV sales are not taking off quickly. They peaked in 2014 at 0.72 percent of total new automobile and light-duty truck purchases. Last summer almost 500,000 EVs were on the road — just a drop compared with the more than 250 million vehicles in the United States.

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You guys need to get off the curb and buy one of the darn machines and drive Into the Fast Lane. It’s a conundrum. Can't drive sales from your old junkers :badgrin:
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 12:50:53

pstarr wrote:You guys need to get off the curb and buy one of the darn machines and drive Into the Fast Lane. It’s a conundrum. Can't drive sales from your old junkers :badgrin:

Well, once the Model 3 is established in a few years, assuming the obstructionists get out of the damn way and let Tesla have a service center (and preferably dealership) in central, KY, suddenly I'm VERY interested.

I've read estimates that the dual motor performance version might do 0-60 in well under 4 seconds without burning a molecule of gas, which sounds like a total hoot (depending on the cost).

Or if not, then by 2021 or so, I expect to see several quality brands (i.e. NOT GM) selling BEV's competitively, where I can conveniently get them serviced. At that point, if Musk hasn't woken up to the fact that ordinary consumers want to get their cars conveniently, reliably serviced, then it's his loss and I'll look to the competition.

What's your hurry? If you want to hurry and worry about how soon I buy a BEV feel free, but that won't change my plans any more than various calls for quick doom.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Cog » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 12:55:03

Tesla cars are smoking ICE vehicles in street racing.

Tesla street racing channel

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOpdDZ ... 8IuNZzz2iQ
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 13:02:18

Outcast_Searcher wrote:
pstarr wrote:You guys need to get off the curb and buy one of the darn machines and drive Into the Fast Lane. It’s a conundrum. Can't drive sales from your old junkers :badgrin:

Well, once the Model 3 is established in a few years, assuming the obstructionists get out of the damn way and let Tesla have a service center (and preferably dealership) in central, KY, suddenly I'm VERY interested.

So the future of mankind/womankind and a carbon-free future is all in AdamB's soft white hands. Scary! He only purchased an ICE Volt
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(BTW, not one of those Arby's charging stations is utilized. All empty and forlorn.)
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 13:13:39

pstarr wrote:BTW, not one of those Arby's charging stations is utilized. All empty and forlorn.


Well, gee, let's not build out the charging infrastructure ahead of time because we just can't stand the horror of seeing empty charging stalls!!!

What logic. Sheesh.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby baha » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 14:40:10

The full implications of this technology is not yet apparent. Don't get too excited about the use of charging stations. This is just gen-1. Most people already charge at home and future generations will need less and less infrastructure. I don't think dedicated charging stations will get enough use to justify the cost. Gas stations are an endangered species. In 10 years all the old expectations will be dead and we will have something we never saw coming.

I personally can go all day without charging my phone...I just plug it in before bedtime :)

Think about it...if you had a gasoline pump in your garage, would you ever stop at a convenience store?
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 15:35:07

Outcast_Searcher wrote:-snip-

Surely a vehicle fleet getting something like double the mileage during transition for city driving has to be a HUGE improvement while the BEV fleet and infrastructure is built out in coming decades.


You are making an apples/oranges comparison between different classes of vehicles with differing passenger capacity and payloads. The 25% real world figure for comparable vehicles is indeed a good one. For example, the new conventional hybrid diesel-electric busses used by the VTA (Valley Transportation Authority) in Silly Valley:
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The 80+ hybrid busses completely replaced the VTA conventional diesel fleet in 2016 and 2017, following a pilot program where they were evaluated against BEV, flywheel storage, and hydrogen fuel cell busses over 5 years. The mileage improvement versus a (same size but slightly lighter) diesel bus was 24%, averaged over all vehicles, all drivers, and all routes.

Conventional ICE cars now can be bought with 8-speed automatic transmissions, and auto start/stop features. That is where the 25% figure comes from, from similar vintage and similar-featured vehicles. Comparing new hybrids to older ICE vehicles is where you get figures like 100% improvement.

Having said the above, I think the 25% improvement for a hybrid makes sense in many but not all vehicle classes. Sports cars and offroad vehicles don't benefit from hybrid technology, although there are some interesting pure BEV sports cars like the Renovo Coupe.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 16:06:01

KaiserJeep wrote:
Outcast_Searcher wrote:-snip-

Surely a vehicle fleet getting something like double the mileage during transition for city driving has to be a HUGE improvement while the BEV fleet and infrastructure is built out in coming decades.


You are making an apples/oranges comparison between different classes of vehicles with differing passenger capacity and payloads. The 25% real world figure for comparable vehicles is indeed a good one. For example, the new conventional hybrid diesel-electric busses used by the VTA (Valley Transportation Authority) in Silly Valley:

Conventional ICE cars now can be bought with 8-speed automatic transmissions, and auto start/stop features. That is where the 25% figure comes from, from similar vintage and similar-featured vehicles. Comparing new hybrids to older ICE vehicles is where you get figures like 100% improvement.


1). I looked at your post again. No buses mentioned. By context, it sure sounded like passenger cars, which is in the context of what most of this thread has been about. Now you talk about "busses" [sic].

2). I'm comparing 5 seater passenger cars, LATE MODEL cars, to other 5 seater passenger new model cars. So where do you get "older" ICE vehicles from my post?

3), You talk hybrids, you claim 25% improvement, and then you switch to start/stop on standard ICE's?
If you change horses in midstream or aren't clear on what you are talking about, don't be surprised when other stats are cited by another reader.

...

Now, if you want to say for buses and for conventional ICE cars, that new technology can offer a 25%ish improvement, fine. But that sure seems to be a different thing than your post I quoted and commented on was about.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 26 Jul 2017, 16:11:14

pstarr wrote:
GASMON wrote:All electric cars in UK probably ain't gonna happen.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07 ... t-unveils/

Gas

"Just imagine the joy of having to trail 800m of extension leads from your bedroom window to your car to charge it over night because you couldn't park right outside your house. Then imagine the other 240 car owners living in a tower block all having to do the same or the 50 people living in you street doing this."

As usual, the commentors have more common sense than government drones

Sure. Because inductive charging is impossible. Because government having (metered) parking with inductive charging is impossible. Because charging stations are impossible for those who can't easily charge at home. (Hint: they already exist).

If you can't do better than that, you're not credible.
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