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THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Discussions of conventional and alternative energy production technologies.

Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby eclipse » Thu 18 May 2017, 17:52:06

The electricity grid already exists, and already has enough spare capacity to charge over 80% of American family cars and other light trucks! The powerplants would be ramped up and run near maximum, but it basically means today's grid can replace most of the petroleum / gasoline market!(But not diesel for long haul trucking).

“For the United States as a whole, 84% of US cars, pickup trucks and SUVs could be supported by the existing infrastructure" https://eclipsenow.files.wordpress.com/ ... _part1.pdf
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that convert nuclear 'waste' into 1000 years of clean energy for America, and can charge all our light vehicles and generate "Blue Crude" for heavy vehicles.
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 18 May 2017, 19:41:06

onlooker wrote:Electric car Sorry, Tesla owners, but your electric car isn’t as green as you think it is
It's funny how luddites start using the same FUD arguments that the Koch brothers would have us swallow. Would you rather have us all driving SUVs, onlooker? Perfect is the enemy of good. But then again, doomers don't even want good. They want doom.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 18 May 2017, 19:53:19

No Asg, I would voluntarily power down (NO CARS) before circumstances do it for us. As you said Perfect is the enemy of good.
“"If you think the economy is more important than the environment, try holding your breath while counting your money"”
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 19 May 2017, 05:22:08

eclipse wrote:The electricity grid already exists, and already has enough spare capacity to charge over 80% of American family cars and other light trucks! The powerplants would be ramped up and run near maximum, but it basically means today's grid can replace most of the petroleum / gasoline market!(But not diesel for long haul trucking).

“For the United States as a whole, 84% of US cars, pickup trucks and SUVs could be supported by the existing infrastructure" https://eclipsenow.files.wordpress.com/ ... _part1.pdf

I think that flies in the face of reality. Our grid and the plants tied to it are old and near their individual life cycle ends. All our nuclear plants are thirty years old and well beyond their original design life but are still running (the ones that are still running) on foolishly extended licenses. And thirty percent of our electricity is still generated by coal burning plants many of which are old and don't have up to date stack scrubbers on them. To run them more hours a day at peak output would have them pollute more hours a day and defeat the purpose of the electric cars they are charging.
The idea that the grid is just fine as it is and we can demand more from it is just rubbish.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby eclipse » Fri 19 May 2017, 06:44:14

1. I didn't say the grid was fine as it is, but like Dr James Hansen, favour the world building out 115 GW reactors a year which on a GDP / reactor basis is quite possible as the French *already* beat this in the 1970's.
2. I quoted NREL to show the potential power available. I did not say we needed to use it all. For example, during the GFC American's bought 25% less oil during the economic slowdown. There are many, many efficiency and lifestyle and city transport mechanisms we can implement fast to not even need half the oil we use today.
3. I'm more a fan of New Urbanism and public transport than cars.
4. But there's an awful lot electric buses, garbage trucks, and delivery vehicles can accomplish for us as we gradually move to EV's, New Urbanism, public transport, etc.
Dr James Hansen recommends breeder reactors that convert nuclear 'waste' into 1000 years of clean energy for America, and can charge all our light vehicles and generate "Blue Crude" for heavy vehicles.
https://eclipsenow.wordpress.com/recharge/
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 19 May 2017, 07:55:22

onlooker wrote:No Asg, I would voluntarily power down (NO CARS) before circumstances do it for us. As you said Perfect is the enemy of good.

Powerdown doesn't sell. Meanwhile... Impact
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 19 May 2017, 07:59:34

eclipse wrote:1. I didn't say the grid was fine as it is, but like Dr James Hansen, favour the world building out 115 GW reactors a year which on a GDP / reactor basis is quite possible as the French *already* beat this in the 1970's. ... 4. But there's an awful lot electric buses, garbage trucks, and delivery vehicles can accomplish for us as we gradually move to EV's, New Urbanism, public transport, etc.

I responded only to what you wrote not the entire linked article or your unstated agreement or disagreements with it.
Even if no electric cars are being built in coming years we need a major ,long term, step by step, well planned, rebuilding and modernization of our electric plants and distribution grid. Some work is being done. My own small co-op has quite a bit of work underway but the major urban suppliers need to get going.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 19 May 2017, 08:05:34

eclipse wrote:there's an awful lot electric buses, garbage trucks, and delivery vehicles can accomplish for us as we gradually move to EV's, New Urbanism, public transport, etc.


The whole paradigm of sending a large capacity vehicle like a bus or a train around a fixed route on a schedule imposes inconvenience on people who ride. It's sort of a 19th/20th century concept. It's dumb in the sense that the bus or train has no knowledge about the riders. They don't know or care where the riders are coming from or where they are going. The riders are responsible for being at the right place at the right time and dealing with the slowdowns involved with the vehicle making pitstops to pick up and drop off more passengers rather than going straight from point A to B. It's also wasteful in the sense that these vehicles will keep making their circuits even if nobody winds up boarding.

Technology revolutionizes logistics. You see it with supply-chain like Wal-Mart and shipping with Amazon. Now we're seeing it with moving people at an individual level with Uber and Lyft.

I think a lot of the clarion call to return to early 20th century living styles is ignorant of the above. It assumes that the only way to improve efficiency is by forcing people to change where and how they live. It requires that you "sell" them on this lifestyle change by some mixture of shaming and seduction and hard-sell. It just doesn't work. You'll convert a handful of people at best. What works best is to apply technology to improve BAU as-is. But then people here aren't interested in what works best. They are interested in social-engineering.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 19 May 2017, 09:56:50

Asgy, that's long-winded puffery. Fun new technologies and efficiency gains that have already maxed out, are still subservient to thermodynamics and entropy.

Uber and lyft are nothing but (unregulated) taxis for the young urban swells . . . driven by rapists and murders lol
Image
Computized supply-chain logistics still require long-haul trucks . . . energy hogs.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 19 May 2017, 10:12:03

pstarr wrote:Fun new technologies and efficiency gains that have already maxed out
Prove it. ...
And how is any of that going to matter if the drivers are going to be replaced by A.I.? Uber and Lyft are sort of like Netflix when they were still shipping physical discs. It's a transitional business model.
You're just throwing random naysaying darts, PStarr.
pstarr wrote: Computized supply-chain logistics still require long-haul trucks . . . energy hogs

Tesla
Oh, and as for final delivery: Drones
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 19 May 2017, 10:22:38

Deleted off topic text.

Note: It takes two for an argument. Pete, knock it off, please. -FL
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 19 May 2017, 11:44:52

Deleted off topic retort text.

Note: It takes two for an argument. Knock it off, please. --FL
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Fri 19 May 2017, 11:46:40

pstarr wrote:Uber and lyft are nothing but (unregulated) taxis for the young urban swells . . .


To me that seems evident. If you go to any third world country, you have seen unregulated taxis for a long time. When people can't afford to keep their own car, they use the cheaper alternative.
Which brings up - why is the use of unregulated taxis becoming more prevalent in the US? Again obvious - it is the cheaper alternative.
So much for the idea of "growth" in the US. The only growth takes place in the bank accounts of the elite. Regardless of gov statistics, income for the peons has not been matching inflation for a long time. Go long on unregulated anything.
We are on our way to becoming a third world nation also.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby pstarr » Fri 19 May 2017, 11:51:15

So Hawkcreek, you are saying that Uber is this:
Image
who's the driver? who's the passenger?

It's a happy sharing experience :)
There's nothing deeper than love. In fairy tales, the princesses kiss the frogs, and the frogs become princes. In real life,the princesses kiss princes, and the princes turn into frogs

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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 19 May 2017, 12:04:45

Hawkcreek wrote:why is the use of unregulated taxis becoming more prevalent in the US? Again obvious - it is the cheaper alternative.


The larger pattern is instant-gratification by smart-phones and ubiquitous internet. Stuff delivered rapidly via Amazon so no need to go to the mall. Media on demand via Netflix so no need to buy or manage physical media. Lodging (Air BnB) on demand. Transportation on demand via Uber/Lyft. Even sex on demand (via Tinder hookup culture). This is, if anything, a sign of decadence, not poverty.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Fri 19 May 2017, 12:24:52

asg70 wrote:The larger pattern is instant-gratification by smart-phones and ubiquitous internet. Stuff delivered rapidly via Amazon so no need to go to the mall. Media on demand via Netflix so no need to buy or manage physical media. Lodging (Air BnB) on demand. Transportation on demand via Uber/Lyft. Even sex on demand (via Tinder hookup culture). This is, if anything, a sign of decadence, not poverty.

If the unregulated taxis were more expensive than keeping your own car, I would agree with you that it is just part of a decadent fad. But that is not the case.
Like everything else in our country, it is all about money.
Delivery via prime amazon, or a smart phone to check motel prices before stopping for the night - it is all cheaper that way.
It just so happens that people are now becoming broke, along with being already decadent.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Fri 19 May 2017, 12:26:55

pstarr wrote:So Hawkcreek, you are saying that Uber is this:
----------------------------------
who's the driver? who's the passenger?
It's a happy sharing experience :)

I didn't understand this at all. Please explain to the old guy.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 19 May 2017, 12:30:38

Hawkcreek wrote:people are now becoming broke, along with being already decadent.

How does that work? You're trying to cast this purely as a matter of class warfare when it's also highly colored by the 4th wave of the industrial revolution.
agenda

What's happening is the emergence of what science-fiction has been speculating about for the last half century or more. I don't know if it will be a better or worse world as a result but it's inevitable and we all have to adapt with it as best we can. Less Cormac McCarthy and more William Gibson for the next couple decades or so at least.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Fri 19 May 2017, 12:54:20

asg70 wrote:
Hawkcreek wrote:people are now becoming broke, along with being already decadent.

How does that work?
You're trying to cast this purely as a matter of class warfare when it's also highly colored by the 4th wave of the industrial revolution.
What's happening is the emergence of what science-fiction has been speculating about for the last half century or more. I don't know if it will be a better or worse world as a result but it's inevitable and we all have to adapt with it as best we can. Less Cormac McCarthy and more William Gibson for the next couple decades or so at least.

I was trying to cast it as a matter of economic reality. Changes are driven by the economics, more than any other factor.
I bought my first bag phone because it enabled me to supervise field crews when I wasn't there. I could make changes to a materials order and save having to make two trips instead of one. It saved me money from the very beginning. Likewise, people use Uber because it saves them money.
FWIW, I've read almost everything William Gibson has written. I like it a lot, but most of the tech in his novels isn't here yet --- to the masses. The average person won't have direct neural interfaces for a while.
Yes, I am aware that we have already lost the class war, but that doesn't stop me from noticing when we get hit again by unexpected fire. I look for the reasons for changes, not just the effects.
Large changes to our system are driven by economics. Changes that are not economically beneficial die out, instead of burgeon out.
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Re: THE Electric Vehicle (EV) Thread pt 6

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 19 May 2017, 14:35:57

Hawkcreek wrote:
pstarr wrote:Uber and lyft are nothing but (unregulated) taxis for the young urban swells . . .


To me that seems evident. If you go to any third world country, you have seen unregulated taxis for a long time. When people can't afford to keep their own car, they use the cheaper alternative.
Which brings up - why is the use of unregulated taxis becoming more prevalent in the US? Again obvious - it is the cheaper alternative.
So much for the idea of "growth" in the US. The only growth takes place in the bank accounts of the elite. Regardless of gov statistics, income for the peons has not been matching inflation for a long time. Go long on unregulated anything.
We are on our way to becoming a third world nation also.

Ah, the constant meme of economic doom.

So is that why we have cell phones, smart phones, GPS systems, expensive built in navigation systems made practical by GPS satellites, etc.? Not to mention the recent option of EV's, made available by other technology advancements.

It's not because people want such things. Or that they are willing to pay for such things (including much more than for a basic home hardwired black AT&T home phone) -- it's that they can't AFFORD things.

Nonsense. I now have a cheap cell phone, cheap home phone (DSL, as part of my cable package), cheap navigation system for the car (which I LOVE, portable, reliable, and a likely net cost of $1 a month or so over its projected useful life. Seemed MUCH more sensible to me than paying 10 times as much or more for a built-in one. Oh, and the map updates are free for life, unlike what many car companies do for their built-in nav systems. And I'd far rather take the practical, economically reasonable choice than the "cool, hip" expensive one. I prefer retiring 17 years early to having been part of the "in" crowd all my adult life by oh, about 90 billion miles.

Just like such OPTIONS, which people love, and people en masse can clearly afford -- first world Uber, Lyft, etc. rides are another CHOICE or convenience which many people, especially young, people choose to do. Not just because they can no longer "afford cars". Because let's face it -- in many big urban environnents, it makes no SENSE to own a car, even for a rich person. If mass transit is great and fairly cheap, parking is expensive and horrendous, and traffic is horrendous, how many people with a brain REALLY want to own a car? (If they want to go out of town, they rent).

But let's spin a yarn that says (while we're at it) that every technological invention since people left caves were because they could no longer "afford" to live as they did -- as long as it feeds the meme of doom, whether that makes any logical sense or not.
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