Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Moderator: Pops

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby Cog » Sat 28 Jan 2017, 08:32:08

onlooker wrote:Yes, the trend has been to monitor people more and more. That is why the revelations of Snowden were so potent. People already suspected this was going on but Snowden confirmed it. Oh and by the way I do not buy that the chips now on most credit and debit cards are for security more like another way to monitor and spy on us.


Did you suddenly distrust the government after Trump was elected, or was it there all along?
User avatar
Cog
Anti-Matter
Anti-Matter
 
Posts: 8842
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Metro-East Illinois

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 28 Jan 2017, 09:03:20

Was there all along. Do not even trust my own Mom. Haha
“"If you think the economy is more important than the environment, try holding your breath while counting your money"”
User avatar
onlooker
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 7244
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby Cog » Sat 28 Jan 2017, 09:16:13

If you do not trust government then why aren't you a small government libertarian instead of a Democrat?
User avatar
Cog
Anti-Matter
Anti-Matter
 
Posts: 8842
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Metro-East Illinois

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby onlooker » Sat 28 Jan 2017, 10:09:06

Cog wrote:If you do not trust government then why aren't you a small government libertarian instead of a Democrat?

Cog you have assumed all this time I am a Democrat. I am not. I actually consider myself what you might call an extreme Libertarian but which is actually an Anarchist. That even small government NO government. People should rule themselves on principles everything can pretty much agree on. No small cadre of people to rule the masses. Maybe you should be an Anarchist as your almost there being a Libertarian :-D :-D
“"If you think the economy is more important than the environment, try holding your breath while counting your money"”
User avatar
onlooker
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 7244
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby Cog » Sat 28 Jan 2017, 16:23:48

I like having the state crack heads from time to time, when the anarchists are interfering with commerce or the free passage of capitalists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8yt8CEf73w
User avatar
Cog
Anti-Matter
Anti-Matter
 
Posts: 8842
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Metro-East Illinois

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby JV153 » Sun 29 Jan 2017, 01:23:32

onlooker wrote:Yes, the trend has been to monitor people more and more. That is why the revelations of Snowden were so potent. People already suspected this was going on but Snowden confirmed it. Oh and by the way I do not buy that the chips now on most credit and debit cards are for security more like another way to monitor and spy on us.


You think your name and address are on that chip ? ;-)
JV153
 

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby onlooker » Fri 28 Apr 2017, 20:24:21

18156958_10154395373932617_8337878045803537622_n.jpg
18156958_10154395373932617_8337878045803537622_n.jpg (75.68 KiB) Viewed 3156 times
“"If you think the economy is more important than the environment, try holding your breath while counting your money"”
User avatar
onlooker
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 7244
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 11 May 2017, 16:13:20

18403199_10213031168799721_4495057197605746212_n.jpg
18403199_10213031168799721_4495057197605746212_n.jpg (37 KiB) Viewed 2889 times
“"If you think the economy is more important than the environment, try holding your breath while counting your money"”
User avatar
onlooker
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 7244
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 14 May 2017, 03:07:50

Capitalism not only satiates superficially and temporarily the cravings and restlessness of those who need it to block pain, affirm worth or succumb to hedonistic pursuits, it creates the conditions/environment that require such outlets. A person at peace is content with what they have, what they do and what they are. So the manifestation of Capitalism as an economic creed and social context is symptomatic of a Society not at peace reflecting individuals not at peace
“"If you think the economy is more important than the environment, try holding your breath while counting your money"”
User avatar
onlooker
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 7244
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 12:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby Cog » Sun 14 May 2017, 06:19:35

Image
User avatar
Cog
Anti-Matter
Anti-Matter
 
Posts: 8842
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Metro-East Illinois

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby evilgenius » Tue 16 May 2017, 11:31:59

The biggest argument in favor of capitalism when I was young, when the Cold War was strong, was that it provided incentive when communism didn't. In that light, I wonder what the North Koreans are doing to incentivize their people to produce rockets and nuclear devices? You would think in a country that poor they couldn't afford those things. Maybe they can afford to develop them, but they won't be able to mass produce them? Are the North Koreans as vulnerable to patriotic rhetoric as people are in much larger and richer countries? Patriotism often fills in to provide incentive when money can't. Perhaps they will be able to fill assembly lines with workers who are making rockets in the national interest? I doubt it, but I guess it's possible. I bring this up because they are oddly enthralling to the world, even though they probably don't amount to the kind of threat, on their own, that people are starting to make them out to be. That is to say, if they are that kind of threat, how have they done it when they violate the accepted premises around which capitalism won the Cold War? What sort of complexity exists in their economy and/or society through which they could actually be a credible threat, and which has, seemingly, subverted accepted economic principles?
User avatar
evilgenius
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 2105
Joined: Tue 06 Dec 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Stopped at the border.

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 16 May 2017, 11:46:31

The counterpoint to North Korea is Cuba, which could not even feed itself without importing Russian refinery products. Cuba has no light or heavy industry to speak of, imports the majority of it's food, and is pretty much Vegan - if you slaughter a cow without government permission, you are imprisoned. Cuba began allowing private entreprenuership in 2011, post-Castro, and things are beginning to improve.

Nobody said Capitalism was perfect, or even good. But it is lots better than anything else ever tried, at providing the essentials of life for the greatest number.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3876
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 16 May 2017, 18:32:18

KaiserJeep wrote:.......
Nobody said Capitalism was perfect, or even good. But it is lots better than anything else ever tried, at providing the essentials of life for the greatest number.

I quite agree and would even say that it is "good" if it is sufficiently regulated so that the richest, most successful individuals, can't use their wealth and the power that comes with it to deny opportunity to the lessor people around them.
User avatar
vtsnowedin
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 7503
Joined: Fri 11 Jul 2008, 02:00:00

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby Midnight Oil » Tue 16 May 2017, 20:43:42

When reading on this topic, it brings me back thinking of this passage in the book,
Desert Solitaire. By "Catus Ed Abby"

They were a survey crew, laying out a new road into the Arches.

And when would the road be built? Nobody knew for sure; perhaps in a couple of years, depending on when the Park Service would be able to get the money. The new road — to be paved, of course — would cost somewhere between half a million and one million dollars, depending on the bids, or more than fifty thousand dollars per linear mile. At least enough to pay the salaries of ten park rangers for ten years. Too much money, I suggested — they’ll never go for it back in Washington.

The three men thought that was pretty funny. Don’t worry, they said, this road will be built. I’m worried, I said. Look, the party chief explained, you need this road. He was a pleasant-mannered, soft-spoken civil engineer with an unquestioning dedication to his work. A very dangerous man. Who needs it? I said; we get very few tourists in this park. That’s why you need it, the engineer explained patiently; look, he said, when this road is built you’ll get ten, twenty, thirty times as many tourists in here as you get now. His men nodded in solemn agreement, and he stared at me intently, waiting to see what possible answer I could have to that.

“Have some more water,” I said. I had an answer all right but I was saving it for later. I knew that I was dealing with a madman.

As long there is a "profit", what was written to me? Oh, you won't be left behind.
Is there a mind without measure?
Midnight Oil
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu 16 Mar 2017, 15:48:37

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 16 May 2017, 21:05:16

I'm not sure I get the point. In fact that paved road, which goes in and has a turnaround at the end, is the one most used in Arches NP. You see slightly more than half the rock arches on that road. Another third of the arches are available on unpaved and rough 2WD roads, and these see few visitors. About 10% of the arches are available only via 4WD, including those in fine loose sand.

I would say that 50X the visitors that see the 4WD-only arches see those on the paved road. Also, it's the only place you will find bathrooms. I've beeen down every open road in Arches, Canyonlands, and Moab.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3876
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby Hawkcreek » Tue 16 May 2017, 21:52:44

KaiserJeep wrote:I'm not sure I get the point. In fact that paved road, which goes in and has a turnaround at the end, is the one most used in Arches NP.

It wasn't about the arches. Or the road. (hint)
But I do like that park. And the Mesa Arch in Canyonlands park at sunrise will make even an atheist start believing in something.
"It don't make no sense that common sense don't make no sense no more"
John Prine
Hawkcreek
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 1451
Joined: Sun 15 Aug 2004, 02:00:00
Location: Washington State

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 16 May 2017, 22:10:07

I don't think there is any significant point. The mission of the NPS is to promote access to and use of the public parklands. The road was clearly in support of that mission, and once built, definately had the intended effect of increasing park visitation.

The mission of the NPS is definately not to deny the public access to public lands, in the name of some bogus concept of "protection". If you ask me, they got it exactly right - one paved road in and out, the finest arches visible from the road or after a short walk from the road, and no improvements to any of the other unpaved roads. You need a capable 4WD vehicle to see all of the park, and a good bit of it needs to be "crawled" at 10mph or less. That is entirely appropriate.

Arches NP is a destination in itself, and not a through road. There are no lodges or hotels or campsites there. The park is seen, appreciated, and protected. If "Catus Ed Abby" says different, he is wrong.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3876
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby Midnight Oil » Tue 16 May 2017, 23:14:04

Suppose one needs to read the book to appreciate the encounter of the survey team. A classic among certain folks.
The book can be had at any Library.
For more read some here
https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2 ... -solitaire

Lonely Are the Brave is a story Ed Abbey wrote that was made into a movie starring Kirk Douglas.
Industrial tourism is a threat to the national parks. But the chief victims of the system are the motorized tourists. They are being robbed and robbing themselves. So long as they are unwilling to crawl out of their cars they will not discover the treasures of the national parks and will never escape the stress and turmoil of the urban-suburban complexes which they had hoped, presumably, to leave behind for a while.”
Desert Solitaire
Midnight Oil
Tar Sands
Tar Sands
 
Posts: 116
Joined: Thu 16 Mar 2017, 15:48:37

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby ralfy » Tue 16 May 2017, 23:23:30

The question isn't whether or not it's good or better but whether or not it can be maintained in a limited biosphere. Peak oil and other crises show that it can't.
http://sites.google.com/site/peakoilreports/
User avatar
ralfy
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 4508
Joined: Sat 28 Mar 2009, 10:36:38
Location: The Wasteland

Re: THE Capitalism Thread pt 3

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 16 May 2017, 23:33:46

I'll check out that book, but no matter how eloquent the prose, I just do not agree with the sentiment expressed. The parks are for the people, and also for the future. In each major park I have been to, there have been out of the way corners, little visited, and I have bothered to seek them out. But I am not quite 66 and crippled by Rheumatoid Arthritis, and now must do my backwoods exploring in a Jeep. Too many places I enjoyed can no longer be driven, because of misguided protectionism.

Ralfy, what pray tell cannot be maintained about rock arches in an almost lifeless desert? The only things they do are maintain the roads, empty the trash, issue speeding tickets, and collect visitor fees. My guess is that this particular park generates net revenues.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 3876
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: California's Silly Valley

Previous

Return to Economics & Finance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests