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THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2(merged)

Re: THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 18 May 2015, 07:02:47

No doubt that humanity has screwed itself and much else.

Doh and I debated blame. I don't think I presented a very compelling reason why someone should not blame others. I would like to offer a theory on how we got where we are, sans blaming some one group. It's a partial explanation, not complete.

Humans are capable of operating, planning, over some time frame. Hunter gatherers need to work over a short time frame, maybe a few months, usually much less. As we developed agriculture we needed to work over longer time frames, at least one growing season so we could save harvests and seeds to start over. There is some evidence that we can work over longer time frames when we have a stable government, but these are extraordinary events.

There seems to be little evidence that we can, as a crowd, conceptualizer and plan over significant time frames, the kind of time frames required to deal with resource depletion and climate change.

I suggest that there is a natural impediment to this forward thinkingap and planning in the shortness of our life spans relative to the flow of the problem. Because children grow up in the world they grow up in they experience the degradation of their parents world as "normal." This each generation has a new normal, the time clock is reset. It naturally limits how far we, as a collective, can look into the future.

This is a true for the 1% as it is for the balance. They just can't see.
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Re: THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Mon 18 May 2015, 07:09:09

Keith - "That doesn't seem to have made much difference." That brings to mind a response from Gen. Scharzkopf when a reporter asked a seemingly critical question as to how many land mines were there in that field he ran across to save a wounded man. The general gave him a stare that would make you blood run cold: "It only takes one to kill you." He didn't say it but you could tell the last word of the comment would have been "...ass hole".

Likewise it only takes one sperm, just like one land mine, to get the job done. LOL.
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Re: THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2

Unread postby ennui2 » Mon 18 May 2015, 16:16:56

Newfie wrote:I suggest that there is a natural impediment to this forward thinkingap and planning in the shortness of our life spans relative to the flow of the problem. Because children grow up in the world they grow up in they experience the degradation of their parents world as "normal." This each generation has a new normal, the time clock is reset. It naturally limits how far we, as a collective, can look into the future.


Bingo. This is my own personal definition of "tragedy of the commons". Deep ecology and thinking in "deep time" is a foreign concept to humanity. It's possible to do it, but it is by no means our standard operating procedure. We operate in the now, fight or flight. The reason why monuments like the Pyramids are wonders of the world is because it's so rare to have any endeavor of humanity that is intended to last any longer than is required for a quick payback. It's something reserved for pharaohs. This is also why I think permaculture has no chance, because it requires that the land have a consistent caretaker over a period of decades at least before it matures. In that short amount of time it's likely that the land will change owners and the new owners won't see the value of what's being attempted and the land will be turned into a subdivision or an open field for annuals. There's just too much turnover in land ownership. I see this even in the suburbs here where maple trees that have been around since I was a kid are casually sent into the chipper and stumped because the owner wants to put in a cul-de-sac driveway. These maple trees were probably planted in post-war. In deep time, these trees are still young but they battle long odds when these houses change hands on average what, once every couple decades at least?

The only kind of land use that works under these circumstances are annuals. Sad but true.
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Re: THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Tue 19 May 2015, 04:51:23

pstarr wrote:10 pounds from 99 plants in 150 sq. ft., under 6-8 lights is about right for the industry. Outdoor? The sky is the limit, literally and figuratively.

I thought as much. :) Try growing a years worth of food for you and your family and then we can talk Permaculture. It is very different when you want to grow things by the ton or at least tens of bushels.
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Re: THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2

Unread postby kiwichick » Tue 19 May 2015, 05:38:26

+1 newfie

each generation only really starts to take notice of what is going on around them after they enter their second decade on this planet

my memory is pretty sketchy prior to 1970 so I don't really remember playing in the snow on my grandparents farm in the mid 60's, even though I can see my younger self in the photo's

my kids , born between 1985 and 1990 , probably don't remember any thing that happened before the mid 1990's

I don't think it is just fashion that has us wearing fewer clothes today than our parents or grandparents were wearing 50 or 80 years ago

one of our largest glaciers in New Zealand, the Tasman has thinned by approximately 150 metres ( approx. 450 feet ) since it's first survey in the 1890's but that's impossible to see from day to day or even from one year to the next unless you are constantly watching

my kids will see the lake at the end of the glacier and struggle to realize that just 40 years ago that was solid ice over 100 metres thick
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Re: THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Keith_McClary » Wed 20 May 2015, 00:15:49

ROCKMAN wrote:Keith - "That doesn't seem to have made much difference." That brings to mind a response from Gen. Scharzkopf when a reporter asked a seemingly critical question as to how many land mines were there in that field he ran across to save a wounded man. The general gave him a stare that would make you blood run cold: "It only takes one to kill you." He didn't say it but you could tell the last word of the comment would have been "...ass hole".

Likewise it only takes one sperm, just like one land mine, to get the job done. LOL.

That's an interesting question. If 50% doesn't make much difference, would 90% ? By what factor is our equipment over-engineered? There must be some evolutionary reason why there is such excess capacity. Has anyone seen research on this?
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Re: THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 20 May 2015, 06:25:15

Keith - Long ago I read an editorial on the subject. They laid the basic blame for over population not on our "excess capacity" to create babies but on our improved health systems. Long ago when mortality,(especially child mortality) was so high there wasn't excess capacity. But thanks to modern medicine our life spans have stretched much further then evolution could adjust to.

IOW we aren't having too many babies...we're keeping old farts like me and you alive too long. LOL.
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Re: THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 20 May 2015, 06:27:15

Ask a dairy farmer how many Bulls he needs.

You could cut the male population by 90% without effecting theoretical growth rates at all and, i suspect, embarrassingly little effect on actuaalized birth rates.

By the large, men are redundant. Good for dangerous jobs the smart folks don't wat to do.

Come to think of it, where are the demand contributors to this site?
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Re: THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 20 May 2015, 06:29:40

Right on ROCK. Not only that, but we don't retire from the workforce, thus we starve the youngsters of their livelihood.

I intend to do my necessary duty and retire in Dec. Far to late, but I plead special circumstances, my Wife made me do it. 8O :-D (Which is actually true.)
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Re: THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2

Unread postby ennui2 » Wed 20 May 2015, 09:52:29

Who is "we"? There ARE groups out there having lots of babies, even in the US.
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Re: THE Biodiversity thread Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Fri 21 Apr 2017, 08:33:41

Everyone should watch this video, especially those who do not have a grasp on how and why biodiversity develops.

https://youtu.be/xPeyrXIBZG8
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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