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THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby ralfy » Wed 15 Mar 2017, 11:22:32

Newfie wrote:Ralph,
No peacocks don't grow tail feathers on purpose, it's all natural selection, through the mating process. You have to live to mate, but just long enough to mate. And the male, generally, picks who she mates with. So males want to be attractive.


Wanting to be attractive implies that they have to put on certain feathers to do so, but as pointed out, that doesn't take place. Rather, certain traits appear through random mutation, and it's the environment that determines whether those traits are advantageous or not. Worse, changes in the environment may make traits that are advantageous the opposite.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 15 Mar 2017, 14:11:47

You may want a Mercedez Benz.

Or, if you get caught under water for a couple of minutes you body, and you, will really WANT to breath.

Reread my previous post using the second concept of want provided above.

It has nothing to do with your rational brain, and everything to do with your innate desire to live and reproduce.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 15 Mar 2017, 19:53:40

ralfy wrote:
Newfie wrote:Ralph,
No peacocks don't grow tail feathers on purpose, it's all natural selection, through the mating process. You have to live to mate, but just long enough to mate. And the male, generally, picks who she mates with. So males want to be attractive.


Wanting to be attractive implies that they have to put on certain feathers to do so, but as pointed out, that doesn't take place. Rather, certain traits appear through random mutation, and it's the environment that determines whether those traits are advantageous or not. Worse, changes in the environment may make traits that are advantageous the opposite.


Read about it here Ralphy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary ... acteristic

They are believed to be the product of sexual selection for traits which display fitness, giving an individual an advantage over its rivals in courtship and aggressive interactions. They are distinguished from the primary sex characteristics, the sex organs, which are directly necessary for sexual reproduction to occur.
Secondary sex characteristics include manes of male lions and long feathers of male peacock, the tusks of male narwhals, enlarged proboscises in male elephant seals and proboscis monkeys, the bright facial and rump coloration of male mandrills, and horns in many goats and antelopes, and these are believed to be produced by a positive feedback loop known as the Fisherian runaway produced by the secondary characteristic in one sex and the desire for that characteristic in the other sex. Male birds and fish of many species have brighter coloration or other external ornaments. Differences in size between sexes are also considered secondary sexual characteristics.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby ralfy » Wed 15 Mar 2017, 21:13:26

Ibon wrote:
Read about it here Ralphy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary ... acteristic

They are believed to be the product of sexual selection for traits which display fitness, giving an individual an advantage over its rivals in courtship and aggressive interactions. They are distinguished from the primary sex characteristics, the sex organs, which are directly necessary for sexual reproduction to occur.
Secondary sex characteristics include manes of male lions and long feathers of male peacock, the tusks of male narwhals, enlarged proboscises in male elephant seals and proboscis monkeys, the bright facial and rump coloration of male mandrills, and horns in many goats and antelopes, and these are believed to be produced by a positive feedback loop known as the Fisherian runaway produced by the secondary characteristic in one sex and the desire for that characteristic in the other sex. Male birds and fish of many species have brighter coloration or other external ornaments. Differences in size between sexes are also considered secondary sexual characteristics.


I don't think males from these species buy or put on feathers, tusks, etc., in a way that male humans would wear expensive sunglasses. I'm not even sure how phenotypes can now be equated with virtual value of marketed products.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Squilliam » Wed 15 Mar 2017, 22:17:34

Newfie wrote:Squillium,
That's what you are reflecting upon. The things we do make no sense from a ration perspective. But they usually make a lot of sense if I you look at it just from the perspective of how to pass along your genes.

We are base animals and our base drives, mostly the desire to reproduce, drive us in ways we are not even aware of. That is very powerful.

It's a lousy strategy for long term survival, but has worked for many millions of years.

There is a great little book, very entertaining but filled with great observations and poignant truths. I like it because it is not pretentious, gets right to the point.
Mother Earth is Trying To Kill You. I highly recommend it.


Another example of that is selfish genes by Richard Dawkins. Our bodies were built to serve our genes, and not the reverse. It explains a whole range of our behaviours from an evolutionary psych perspective, and it's not pretty with respect to ones ego if you read it. We're all biased not only towards family, but also people that are physically and genetically close to us. It even goes on to explain memes in much the same fashion as genes whereby ideas themselves are transmitted from mind to mind and generation to generation much like the genetic material that determines our own makeup.

I wonder though with respect to the 'selfish gene' perspective that our best and worst behaviours are hard coded. What does it mean for something like altruism when you know that the person being altruistic is just being driven by natural brain pathways that 'rewards' them for that behaviour? Is a nice sociopath for instance 'more good' than someone that is driven to act in a 'nice' way by their own brain reward pathways for instance? How this relates to global population is that 'if' there are serious economic and ecological challenges then the old nasty pathways that everyone has just get activated. Suddenly people are not nice to people that don't look like them, and even target them in their primitive survival/competitive behaviour. I have long held the belief that if climate change for instance really gets serious there won't be a 'refugee' problem because in a dark way I suspect that they will be made to feel extremely unwelcome.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 17 Mar 2017, 09:03:28

ralfy wrote:
Ibon wrote:
Read about it here Ralphy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary ... acteristic

They are believed to be the product of sexual selection for traits which display fitness, giving an individual an advantage over its rivals in courtship and aggressive interactions. They are distinguished from the primary sex characteristics, the sex organs, which are directly necessary for sexual reproduction to occur.
Secondary sex characteristics include manes of male lions and long feathers of male peacock, the tusks of male narwhals, enlarged proboscises in male elephant seals and proboscis monkeys, the bright facial and rump coloration of male mandrills, and horns in many goats and antelopes, and these are believed to be produced by a positive feedback loop known as the Fisherian runaway produced by the secondary characteristic in one sex and the desire for that characteristic in the other sex. Male birds and fish of many species have brighter coloration or other external ornaments. Differences in size between sexes are also considered secondary sexual characteristics.


I don't think males from these species buy or put on feathers, tusks, etc., in a way that male humans would wear expensive sunglasses. I'm not even sure how phenotypes can now be equated with virtual value of marketed products.


Ralphy,
Try reading up on Bower Birds (I think that's right.). There is a wonderful description of them and how their behavior directly answers your question in "That Thing with Feathers."

But also that book I can't recall that goes into the way conspicious consumption displays work in humans.

My internet is extremely poor so I can't find and post links.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 17 Mar 2017, 09:09:53

Squilliam,

Yes exactly. And I think we are seeing the emergence of these behaviors in the growing nationalist movements. I expect to see this then only get stronger.

I further think it reflects back to our recent election of Trump. He feeds into those emotions and gives them some legitimacy.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby ralfy » Fri 17 Mar 2017, 13:16:36

Newfie wrote:
Ralphy,
Try reading up on Bower Birds (I think that's right.). There is a wonderful description of them and how their behavior directly answers your question in "That Thing with Feathers."

But also that book I can't recall that goes into the way conspicious consumption displays work in humans.

My internet is extremely poor so I can't find and post links.


Do bowerbirds buy overpriced materials to make structures in the same way that human beings buy overpriced sunglasses? And since the latter are priced highly because they are endorsed by celebrities who appear in fancy ads, do we assume that these birds also have similar? That is, consumer markets for materials and bird celebrities to endorse them?

For the point about conspicuous consumption, I mentioned the author's last name in a previous post.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 17 Mar 2017, 16:09:36

Price paid by other animals is calories. Bower birds pay a heavy price in creating massive "huts" to woo their mates. The huts are built on areas that they have cleared of all vegetation, not easy. Then they go out and find special objects, say things that are blue, blue berries, blue string, blue bottle caps, blue glass. They arrange them systematically so as to present a very special image, one that incorporates some special optical effects, to the lady bird.

So yes, they do all the things you speak of.

But why are we discussing this point? How did we get here?

I feel that this is a non disagreement, a tangent from the main topic.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Cog » Fri 17 Mar 2017, 19:41:14

Well to be blunt, liquor drops drawers just as fast as shiny beads in my experience.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 17 Mar 2017, 19:57:33

Kisses are sweeter but liqueur is quicker. Or is it lick her is quicker? Does it matter? :-D
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby ralfy » Sat 18 Mar 2017, 21:15:07

Newfie wrote:Price paid by other animals is calories. Bower birds pay a heavy price in creating massive "huts" to woo their mates. The huts are built on areas that they have cleared of all vegetation, not easy. Then they go out and find special objects, say things that are blue, blue berries, blue string, blue bottle caps, blue glass. They arrange them systematically so as to present a very special image, one that incorporates some special optical effects, to the lady bird.

So yes, they do all the things you speak of.

But why are we discussing this point? How did we get here?

I feel that this is a non disagreement, a tangent from the main topic.


If it's "paid," then who's the receiver? Are the calories deposited in a bank, lent out at interest, and increased through a multiplier?

Do they also make more huts than what are needed, let bower bird celebrities endorse them, have them manufactured in bower bird developing economies, and then sold at a discount during particular times of the year? Perhaps there are also counterfeits made in some parts of their global economy?

I'm asking these questions because that's how it works with designer sunglasses.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 11:07:26

Ralph somehow you've lost the whole point.

Ibon and I are talking about Darwinian evilution and how it's forces drive us.

We are taking about the underlying foxes at work in our bodies which we can not control.

You are stuck looking at the symptoms of the root cause.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 11:21:39

Newfie wrote:Ralph somehow you've lost the whole point.

Ibon and I are talking about Darwinian evilution and how it's forces drive us.

We are taking about the underlying foxes at work in our bodies which we can not control.

You are stuck looking at the symptoms of the root cause.

Foxes?? :)
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 11:52:37

I blame the darn iPhone auto replace feature! :oops:

FIXES not foxes. (And evolution not evilution - which it does think is a word?)

Sometimes I think I just exist for the merriment of others. :-D
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 20:00:09

For a while, since reading "Taste of War", I've had the idea that the firt phase of our population collapse would come about because of a go along financial collapse, itself brought about because the "players" at heart all distrust one another and at one point will create a "bank run" when they all try to bail from the game at once.

Then I read this. Ugo Bardi seems to have a similar gut feeling. Not good.

http://peakoil.com/generalideas/zombie- ... our-future
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby sparky » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 20:10:06

.
On birds and feathers , generally speaking , it's the female which choose who she will be mating with
there are exceptions , Ducks are on record as rapists ,

the usual test for the female is how strong and healthy the prospective mate is
she goes for the efficient and discrete camouflage suit
the gorgeous feather of the peacock , pheasant and others is a handicap , a dazzling display of extravagant spending of resources for no useful everyday purpose ,
in fact they are a very severe handicap to not being noticed ,preyed upon or flying away
the whole point is a swagger , look how good I am , I can waste so much because I'm so good
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 20:14:36

Yup, you got the concept. Same with some dick driving a fancy sport car and blowing come. Look how I swagger! Look how I can afford to waste!
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby ralfy » Mon 20 Mar 2017, 23:14:03

Newfie wrote:Ralph somehow you've lost the whole point.

Ibon and I are talking about Darwinian evilution and how it's forces drive us.

We are taking about the underlying foxes at work in our bodies which we can not control.

You are stuck looking at the symptoms of the root cause.


From what I remember, you were comparing overpriced sunglasses with tail feathers:

the-global-population-thread-pt-2-t73148-380.html#p1352290

and with that seeing conspicuous consumption in light of natural selection. But as I explained earlier, the two are not the same. That's why the example had to be changed to bowerbirds building structures, but that's still not the same as buying overpriced sunglasses for reasons also explained earlier.
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Re: THE Global Population Thread Pt.2

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 21 Mar 2017, 04:36:52

It seems I have explained poorly. Why not go back and read Ibon and Sparky posts. They seem to have the same drift. Maybe their explanations can help. Sorry.
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