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U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

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U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby vox_mundi » Sun 09 Apr 2017, 07:36:11

U.S. Navy sends strike group toward Korean peninsula

SEOUL — A U.S. Navy strike group led by the USS Carl Vinson aircraft carrier was making its way towards the Korean peninsula Sunday “to maintain readiness” as Kim Jong Un’s regime in North Korea prepared to mark key anniversaries this coming week

Over the weekend, North Korea said it was not afraid of military strikes like those the United States launched on Syria last week, saying it could defend itself with its “tremendous military muscle with a nuclear force.”

In this atmosphere, the Carl Vinson strike group, which includes a carrier air wing and two guided-missile destroyers, was ordered to travel to the “western Pacific.” When the group left Singapore on Saturday, it was bound for Australia before receiving the new orders.

The Vinson group last month participated in joint drills with the South Korean military to prepare for a sudden change on the peninsula — including the collapse of the North Korean regime or an invasion.
The North has conventional artillery massed on its side of the demilitarized zone that bisects the Korean Peninsula, giving it the capacity to inflict serious damage on greater Seoul, a metropolitan area of 20 million people that lies just 30 miles south of the DMZ.

Image


What Are America’s Options on North Korea?

The National Security Council has presented President Donald Trump with options to respond to North Korea's nuclear program — including putting American nukes in South Korea or killing dictator Kim Jong-un, multiple top-ranking intelligence and military officials told NBC New

"We have 20 years of diplomacy and sanctions under our belt that has failed to stop the North Korean program," one senior intelligence official involved in the review told NBC News.
"I'm not advocating pre-emptive war, nor do I think that the deployment of nuclear weapons buys more for us than it costs," but he stressed that the U.S. was dealing with a "war today" situation.

"I don't think that [deploying nuclear weapons] is a good idea. I think that it will only inflame the view from Pyongyang," retired Adm. James Stavridis told NBC News. "I don't see any upside to it because the idea that we would use a nuclear weapon even against North Korea is highly unlikely."

Another option is to target and kill North Korean leader Kim Jong-un and other senior leaders in charge of the country's missiles and nuclear weapons and decision-making.

Adopting such an objective has huge downsides
, said Lippert, who also served as an assistant defense secretary under President Barack Obama.

"Discussions of regime change and decapitation...tend to cause the Chinese great pause of concern and tends to have them move in the opposite direction we would like them to move in terms of pressure," he said.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tru ... ea-n743571

... There’s a reason why Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, and Barack Obama all considered preemptive military strikes against North Korea’s nuclear sites and all eventually decided against it. As North Korea’s nuclear infrastructure has become more sophisticated, it has grown increasingly difficult to design a military campaign that could eliminate (as opposed to merely slow down) the entire program—especially now that the Kim regime has spread out its nuclear-weapons arsenal, facilities for enriching weapons-grade plutonium and uranium, and mobile systems for launching missiles. “It’s very hard to strike [these components] because you don’t know where they are.”
“It gets pretty ugly, pretty fast,” ... There could “be millions of casualties.”

North Korea could retaliate against U.S. strikes by unleashing a barrage of artillery against the South Korean capital of Seoul, which is one of the largest cities in the world and roughly as far from the demilitarized zone separating the two countries as Washington, D.C., is from Baltimore. The North Korean military could place chemical weapons on that artillery. It could also target U.S. military bases in South Korea and Japan with ballistic missiles—potentially nuclear-tipped missiles.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby dissident » Sun 09 Apr 2017, 08:45:37

American dick strokers think their dinosaur, colonial marines carriers are very intimidating. North Korea more than likely has some nice hypersonic anti-ship missiles (or will get some soon from its north-eastern neighbour) so we'll see how far way these carriers will be cruising. Probably far enough away to make any use of on board aircraft not feasible.

The self-anointed global police needs to be stopped. Carriers at the bottom of the sea will be a good message. Mind your own domestic business first, global ruler wannabes.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Cog » Sun 09 Apr 2017, 08:58:45

There is such a thing called aerial refueling. You might want to look that up.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby vox_mundi » Sun 09 Apr 2017, 09:11:56

dissident wrote:... North Korea more than likely has some nice hypersonic anti-ship missiles (or will get some soon from its north-eastern neighbour) so we'll see how far way these carriers will be cruising. Probably far enough away to make any use of on board aircraft not feasible.

The self-anointed global police needs to be stopped. Carriers at the bottom of the sea will be a good message. Mind your own domestic business first, global ruler wannabes.

More likely response is cyber attack on U.S. critical infrastructure - banks, financial networks, oil & gas pipelines, etc. A cyber attack would require access to China's servers.

Except for submarines, NK has nothing that can touch the carrier group, and firing solutions are already entered for NK's sub fleet. China will not be giving it's DF-21's to anybody.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Sun 09 Apr 2017, 12:21:55

dissident wrote:The self-anointed global police needs to be stopped. Carriers at the bottom of the sea will be a good message. Mind your own domestic business first, global ruler wannabes.

Ironically, that would be in America's interests (except for those in power /running the military) in the long run.

Just think what the US could do with, say, 80% of the current military budget, if the military were changed to a cooperative venture designed to keep America safe from attack and join groups like NATO countries in balanced operations that there is consensus on -- and that's pretty much it.

Of course, things like oil imports might be more dicey -- all the motivation to become truly energy independent and push forward on green tech we should need.

So sign me up as a supporter of the US being the global military police. (As an unhappy citizen of that "self-appointed global police", forced to help pay for it, and NOT thinking it is truly in his best interest, overall, unless the rules and spending level change a lot).

BTW, that war machine and the ongoing ME wars the US was wasting $trillions on was one of the reasons I retired early. At least I wasn't actively working to help better support that military spending.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Cog » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 17:51:31

I don't know if this shift in military policy is important or not. But apparently we have signaled our allies that we are going to attempt to shoot down any test missile that Fatboy intends to launch. At poker this would be a see your bet and raise. Now we don't know how Kim would respond to a successful intercept. Would he raise the bet again with some one off military actions or will he push all his chips in?


The United States has hinted at an unprecedented shift in its policy toward North Korea by telling a key ally that it is ready to shoot down missiles test-fired by the Kim regime, according to Australian media reports.

http://thediplomat.com/2017/04/us-fully ... -missiles/

Washington has briefed Australia on being “fully prepared” to intercept any ballistic missiles launched around North Korean founder Kim Il-sung’s birthday on April 15, Sydney’s Daily Telegraph reported Tuesday, citing anonymous intelligence sources. Under third-generation leader Kim Jong-un, who took over after the death of his father Kim Jong-il in 2011, Pyongyang has accelerated the testing of missiles and nuclear weapons in defiance of international sanctions. Following its fourth and fifth nuclear detonations within months of each other last year, the secretive country is anticipated to be on the verge of its sixth test.
Last edited by Cog on Wed 12 Apr 2017, 17:56:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Cog » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 17:55:01

Welcome to the party pal. Japanese are sending ships to join the Carl Vinson battle group.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... are_btn_fb

Japan is preparing to send several warships to join a US aircraft carrier strike group heading for the Korean peninsula, in a show of force designed to deter North Korea from conducting further missile and nuclear tests.


Citing two well-placed sources who spoke on condition of anonymity, Reuters and the Kyodo news agency said several destroyers from Japan’s maritime self-defence forces would join the USS Carl Vinson and its battle group as it enters the East China Sea.

The move comes as the Chinese president called for calm in the region in a phone conversation with Donald Trump.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 18:16:29

Power projection is nothing new. Power projection via a fleet of ships in a national navy is as old as and enabled the British Empire. Back then, black powder cannons and red-coated "Marines" bearing sabres were the startegic weapons for "sabre rattling".

Today we "sabre rattle" far more efficiently with F-18 Hornet attack planes and Tomahawk cruise missiles, using satellite reconnaissance, with a fleet of surface ships protected by stealthy submarines beneath the surface. But the concept has not changed.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 18:24:10

Cog wrote:Welcome to the party pal. Japanese are sending ships to join the Carl Vinson battle group.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... are_btn_fb

Japan is preparing to send several warships to join a US aircraft carrier strike group heading for the Korean peninsula, in a show of force designed to deter North Korea from conducting further missile and nuclear tests.


Its not working.

The US and Japan and anyone else who cares to can steam around all they want in the name of "power projection", but the North Koreans aren't buying it. They are signaling they are going to test another nuclear bomb on Thursday.

The fact of the matter is a carrier strike group was a fearsome weapon 70 years ago in WWII, but naval ships are much more vulnerable today.

Image
Combined US carrier group + Japanese ships at sea---power projection or vulnerable targets?

Cheers!
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 18:55:23

Cid, perhaps you should look up "Aegis Cruiser". These are fundamentally ships tasked to protect a carrier group. They are equipped to detect and destroy submarines, incoming ballistic missiles, attack planes, or sea-skimming cruise missiles. The carrier task group is not vulnerable to anything in the N Korean arsenal.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Cog » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 19:10:41

I'm not so sure we are bluffing this time about North Korea. Depends on what Fatboy does. I suspect Kim will detonate one of his nucs and also launch some test missiles like he has done before. But Trump is not a conventional type politician president. He might calculate the USA could strike North Korea and get away with it.

If we shoot down a North Korean test missile, its unpredictable how Kim will take that.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 19:21:30

KaiserJeep wrote:.... "Aegis Cruiser". These are fundamentally ships tasked to protect a carrier group. They are equipped to detect and destroy submarines, incoming ballistic missiles, attack planes, or sea-skimming cruise missiles. The carrier task group is not vulnerable to anything in the N Korean arsenal.


Thats not what the US Navy says about nuclear missile attacks on a carrier group. With regards to a potential Chinese Dong Feng anti-ship nuclear missile attack......

...United States Naval Institute in 2009 stated that such a warhead would be large enough to destroy an aircraft carrier in one hit and that there was "currently ... no defense against it" if it worked as theorized. The United States Navy has responded by switching its focus from a close blockade force of shallow water vessels to return to building deep water ballistic missile defense destroyers.[16] The United States has also assigned most of its ballistic missile defense capable ships to the Pacific, extended the BMD program to all Aegis destroyers and increased procurement of SM-3 BMD missiles.[22] The United States also has a large network optimized for tracking ballistic missile launches which may give carrier groups sufficient warning in order to move away from the target area while the missile is in flight.[23] Kinetic defenses against the DF-21D would be difficult. The Navy's primary ballistic missile interceptor, the SM-3, would not be effective since it is designed to intercept missiles in the mid-course phase in space, so it would have to be launched almost immediately to hit before reentry or from an Aegis ship positioned under its flight path. The SM-2 Block 4 can intercept missiles reentering the atmosphere, but the warhead will be performing high-G maneuvers that may complicate interception.[24] from Wikipedia

I like the part about the carrier group "moving away" if they detect an incoming hypersonic nuclear missile attack. How far exactly could they get in a minute steaming at 12 knots per hour?
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Cog » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 19:44:52

We aren't at war with China. We are pals now and they are going to help us attack the Fatman. You are harshing my war boner man. Hush up with that defeatist talk. We are going to kick some Korean ass.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 19:53:28

Plantagenet wrote: -snip-
I like the part about the carrier group "moving away" if they detect an incoming hypersonic nuclear missile attack. How far exactly could they get in a minute steaming at 12 knots per hour?


If you assume that a carrier task force commander is totally ignorant of his group's vulnerabilities and of his opponent's offensive capabilities, then there would be some credibility to the threat from NK weapons. However, there is none. Note also that even if a high altitude nuclear blast were to occur and effectively ground all the planes and disable all above sea missiles, that the submarines would still survive and would destroy the NK military in less than one hour with submarine lauched Tomahawks.

Note also that in spite of the above article, the Aegis system now includes Standard Block IV missiles, capable and intended for intercepting ballistic missiles in the re-entry phase.

Little Fat Man has no teeth.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 20:08:24

P - The ability to protect the fleet may be more dependent on the rules of engagement then our hardware. The most effective defense against anti-ship weapons is to destroy them before they are launched. Which means an aggressive response to a POTENTIAL attack and not waiting for a shot fired at our fleet.

That's one hell of a responsibility. Remember one of the theories of an intell misinterpretation in Iraq: the possible false representation by the Iraq military that it had more weapon of mass destruction capability then it actually had: done as a bluff. What if N Korea tries such a head fake with our fleet: would the ROE allow fleet command to launch a preemptive attack? Or if it's not a bluff and we don't respond with a completely effective defense umbrella and we take casualties?

A premature attack by the US would have serious repercussions. But IMHO not as serious as losing US ships and sailors: a full military response against the N Korean military/industrial complex. A response that might induce a full ground attack by their military against the south. A response that could lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths.

We see it often on TV: the good guy yells "Drop you gun or I'll shoot!". And the bad guy doesn't drop his weapon and shoots the good guy. Would the US Navy yell at the N Koreans to stand own and wait to see if they do? As someone once said: close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades...and nukes.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 20:16:51

Cog wrote:We are going to kick some Korean ass.


Sorry. I'll try to get with the program.

I'm still back with the Trump who was against foreign wars and was going to put America first.

I don't get this new globalist interventionist Trump---what did he do with the original Trump?

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Trump enters the ring in Syria....
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Zarquon » Wed 12 Apr 2017, 23:34:25

Plantagenet wrote:I don't get this new globalist interventionist Trump---what did he do with the original Trump?


His poll ratings fell.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby Cog » Thu 13 Apr 2017, 04:06:30

Its not personal Plant is just business.
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby GASMON » Thu 13 Apr 2017, 04:31:42

Image

Gas
The truth is sometimes incorrect
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Re: U.S. Navy sends strike group toward North Korea

Unread postby ROCKMAN » Thu 13 Apr 2017, 15:24:05

GAS - Funny...thanks. But troubling also. Not so much the software but the humanware. To paraphrase a somewhat nasty old saying: There's a Chink behind the trigger. The Boy might not have the balls/stupidity to launch but what is the nature of any NK "failsafe" system? One of my favorite movies that is seldom broadcast these days is "The Bedford Incidence":

The American destroyer USS Bedford (DLG-113) detects a Soviet submarine in the GIUK gap near the Greenland coast. Although the U.S. and the Soviet Union are not at war, Captain Eric Finlander (
harries his prey mercilessly while civilian photojournalist Ben Munceford and NATO naval advisor Commodore (and ex-Second World War U-boat captain) Wolfgang Schrepke, look on with mounting alarm.

The crew becomes increasingly fatigued by the unrelenting pursuit during which the captain demands full attention to the instruments. When the submarine is found and ignores Captain Finlander's demand to surface and identify itself, Finlander escalates the situation by smashing into the submarine's snorkel, calling it "floating debris". Finlander then orders Bedford to arm weapons and withdraw a distance, where he will wait for the submarine's crew to run out of air and be forced to surface. He reassures Munceford and Schrepke that he is in command of the situation and that he will not fire first, but "If he fires one, I'll fire one."

A tired Ensign Ralston mistakes Finlander's remark as the command to "fire one!" and launches an anti-submarine rocket, which destroys the submarine. Sonar then detects four Soviet nuclear-armed torpedoes are targeting the destroyer. Finlander initially gives basic orders to evade but then silently steps outside. Munceford follows frantically pleading with the captain to do something.

Instead Finlander does nothing, knowing his actions have all but killed everyone on board the Bedford, as the ship cannot escape the nuclear torpedoes. The film ends with still shots of various crewmen "melting" as if the celluloid film were burning as the Bedford and her crew are vaporised in an atomic blast. The film's final image is an iconic, towering mushroom cloud.

As they say: Sh*t happens. Just ask the family members of those hundreds killed on an Iranian commercial airliner that a US destroyer's radar software interpreted as having an attack profile. Sh*t happens even with our well trained Navy. How well trained in the NK navy?
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