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From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Change...

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From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Change...

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 06 Mar 2017, 16:54:53

From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Change the World

by Robert Stacy McCain, March 6, 2017, 12:04 am

Permit me to suggest a semester’s worth of work that some college students may wish to undertake: Study the life of John Lennon and, after you finish reading two or three biographies of the famous leader of The Beatles, go read The Bell Curve by Richard J. Herrnstein and Charles Murray. When you have completed those assignments, read Malcolm Gladwell’s Outliers. The purpose of this proposed curriculum is to understand how the abandoned son of an English sailor became one of the most influential figures in popular culture during the remarkable decade of the 1960s. What was it about Lennon, or the circumstances of his childhood, that enabled this boy from Liverpool and his friends to conquer the musical world? Ah, but first things first.

Last week, an anarchist mob at Middlebury College in Vermont riotously protested a campus speech by Charles Murray. “Resist White Supremacy Here!” was one of the slogans on the signs displayed by the disruptive demonstrators. Later, a group of about 30 protesters, some of them wearing masks, attacked Murray and the Middlebury professor who was walking him to his car. Professor Alison Stanger, a progressive who was a consultant for the State Department during Hillary Clinton’s tenure as Secretary of State, required medical treatment for the injuries she suffered during the radical mob’s attack. What evidently inspired this madness — beyond the current anti-Trump rage of the Left — was the controversial book Murray co-authored more than 20 years ago.
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Remainder is at:https://spectator.org/from-john-lennon-to-charles-murray-we-all-want-to-change-the-world/
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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby Cog » Mon 06 Mar 2017, 17:03:46

The left hates free speech and always has. They would execute you in a second if they ever had true power. Worse than ISIS in many ways.
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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby Subjectivist » Mon 06 Mar 2017, 17:20:29

I don't want to change the world, I want the world to mind its own bussiness and let me mind my own as much as humanly possible.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 06 Mar 2017, 17:51:37

I'm betting neither one of you was rioting as did the Fascist Left-Wing students at a variety of American campuses recently.

(I use the original definition of Fascist from Benito Mussolini, who invented it, not the revised definition from every Left-wing professor you ever had, who convinced you it was synonymous with the Nazi's. Which point they made before feeding your defenseless young mind their own Fascist ideas about how to "fix" everything using the coercive tactics of an oppressive government.)
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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby dissident » Mon 06 Mar 2017, 19:43:21

Subjectivist wrote:I don't want to change the world, I want the world to mind its own bussiness and let me mind my own as much as humanly possible.


+100000

I could never swallow the crock about always wanting change. Change for change's sake is insane.
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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 06 Mar 2017, 19:49:10

:mrgreen:

Little closeted Conservatives, the lot of you.
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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 07 Mar 2017, 00:20:42

Everyone should read Murray's book The Bell Curve.

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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 07 Mar 2017, 03:17:36

pstarr wrote:I don't see how anymore could conflate the 'Bell Curve' with 'Outliers'. The former is ridiculous and debunked and assumes that intelligence is hereditary among humans. While the latter is common sense, takes an opposite view that intelligence is an consequence of environment . . . simply practice. John Lennon and Paul McCartney both had 10,000 hours of practice as young men. They are savants.

All the different critiques of the Bell Curve point to the same mistake, Murray argues that "Human Cognitive ability is a single general entity, depictable as a single number" Truth is IQ test measure the ability to take IQ tests. It's practice, culture, and upringing. Not genes. Gladwell has it right, Murray is a debunked RACIST.


In fact your argument is defective on it's face, because the book The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life does NOT say what you believe it says. It says that intelligence is BOTH a factor of inheritance and of experience. Each human tested has a place on the bell curve, with most in the middle. However that median that defines the exact midpoint of the curve is in a different place for each of the assorted genetic clusters that define the human race.

The classic definition of race is via the three ancient populations which are African, Asian, and European. The Human Genome Project (HGP) found that when you grouped people via common DNA traits, there were seven to 56 groups, depending upon how many unique genes you want to use to define a genetic cluster. ANYTHING you measure, including height, degree of night vision, width of the feet, number of breaths per hour when asleep, or intelligence measured via any means you choose, displays the classic bell curve when the data are plotted. The intelligence median of each of the 7-56 genetic clusters was in fact in a slightly different location. Given the way the HGP data was collected and analyzed, the only surprising result would have been to find that intelligence medians were identical, because all of the other measured parameters showed different medians for different genetic clusters.

The conclusion was that intelligence was different in each genetic cluster, and that genetic clusters definitely did not fit the classic definitions of the three human races which Anthropology had been using for 400+ years.

This of course was not PC. Everybody must be defined as equal in the imaginary world occupied by damned fools. Nobody is allowed to live in the actual world where intelligence can be linked to DNA differences. If you try to get real, you are called a racist.
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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby Cog » Tue 07 Mar 2017, 07:20:06

Even if Murray's work was flawed and even racist, does that give the left the right to assault him to shut him up? Is free speech only for those you agree with? If that is the case, you aren't for free speech at all but for censorship.

The same deal just played out in Berkeley, CA. Trump supporters wanted to demonstrate and were attacked by the leftist thugs, the Antifa. When they defended themselves from being maced, hit with sticks and bricks, they were arrested. Where are the arrests for the Antifa?

Its a matter of time before the gun-fire starts in earnest.
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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby dissident » Tue 07 Mar 2017, 08:18:51

Cog wrote:Even if Murray's work was flawed and even racist, does that give the left the right to assault him to shut him up? Is free speech only for those you agree with? If that is the case, you aren't for free speech at all but for censorship.

The same deal just played out in Berkeley, CA. Trump supporters wanted to demonstrate and were attacked by the leftist thugs, the Antifa. When they defended themselves from being maced, hit with sticks and bricks, they were arrested. Where are the arrests for the Antifa?

Its a matter of time before the gun-fire starts in earnest.


Where is the "both sides do it" example showing anti-Trump protestors being arrested and violent pro-Trump protestors let to do as they please? I have seen not a single such case, which would have been screeched about by CNN et al. 24/7. People posting on this board and elsewhere should lay off the BS equivalence claims. There is no pro-Trump analogue of Antifa (aka Anti-First Amendment). The US "left" are the only ones with the brownshirts.
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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 07 Mar 2017, 09:11:39

We have a bit of a gap at the moment here at Totumas and I am going to wade in this hot bed topic. Life is not all about birds and orchids, my mind does get drawn into the complexity of human cultural issues and I cannot resist!

Has anyone explored the question of why elitist universities and big metropolitan areas all have a liberal slant? The article mentions that liberal professors in Ivy league schools wield enormous influence on students and this has helped to breed a more liberal culture as this "cognitive partitioning" lead to an eventual clustering of very smart people to big metropolitan areas and a "brain drain" from rural areas.

That makes sense. It also makes sense that this contributed to a dominant cultural orientation of liberal elites. But let's stop there for a minute. You have to pull the lens back a bit and ask the fundamental question why learning institutions and big cities germinated a more liberal and progressive ideology in the first place rather than the opposite. This is not some quirky happenstance. There is a real fundamental reason for this.

Is it really just so simple that there is this cabal of liberal professors that indoctrinate impressionable youth to embrace progressive liberalism? I think not.

Think a moment about the kid from bible belt Kansas or even a better example the brainy Indian kid from rural Rajasthan who got accepted into Harvard and left behind his culture in Central Asia and went through 4-8 years of western education. And then he goes back and visits his rural village to confront a huge chasm that has formed culturally. His village is still steeped in bucolic rural agrarian superstitions, gender roles, religious beliefs, etc. while the students education blew his world view wide open. Maybe he dated some jewish girl while at harvard and had some cross cultural sex where she was on top!

This explains why in the first place universities developed a more progressive and liberal orientation. The smarter you are the more likely you will drop authoritarianism, the more likely you will become secular, the more likely you will embrace pluralism, the more likely you will step out of your cultural roots and try on the shoes of many different world views. The more likely you will experiment having sex with a jewish girl. This is what education does, and it is not because there is this conspiracy of cultural liberal and progressive academics that are molding youth to embrace a particular ideology. It is simply what happens when you go down the road of intellectual inquiry.

Liberal progressive ideology might have its roots in the expansion of the intellectual mind that departs from provincial authoritarianism but today it suffers paradoxically the same fate that happens to any belief system. It gets weighed down by dogma. It has become a cultural orientation with a rigid set of rules that starts to imitate the very characteristics of the provincial authoritarianism if supposedly left behind. It has become a religion of sorts, with a politically correct set of right and wrong positions. These politically correct positions caused those violent protesters at Middleburry College in Vermont to block access to Charles Murray's talk as they did not have the integrity to go into the assembly and debate him intellectually.

And so we have a cultural divide today in the USA. For all of us here on this site you have to ask yourself where you stand in this malaise? Do you take a position on either side? Do you join the polarity and gravitational pull of the twin stars of conservative/liberal binary thinking and become locked in cultural positions one way or the other.

Or do you become like John Lennon? An outlier as explained in Malcolm Gladwell's book?

There is something I know deep inside that transcends political correctness. Some of us are more gifted than others. Some of us are bigger risk takers. Some of us for whatever reason feel more comfortable living and breathing outside the comfort zone of consensus reality.

The vast majority however are lead by the leash of binary thinking and really really do love to join one camp or the other.

Where are you?
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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 07 Mar 2017, 09:48:49

Wow Ibon, the stack of assumptions in your post is too much to counter with a short simple response.

Just the tip of the iceberg, you state that liberal ideologues are against Authoritarianism. From all my life experience inside and outside of higher education and life in general proves this to be a demonstrably false assertion. Authoritarianism and toeing the professors line are what life on most University campuses is about.

This was just as true in the 1800's when the 'ivory tower' crowd were all convinced that Africans and Asians were genetically inferior to Europeans. It is just as true today when those same 'progressive leaders' state that all the ills of the modern world were caused by European colonialist policies of the past. Try to disagree with that Authoritarianism of the 'Left' and see how fast your grade point average falls into the basement or you get publically shamed in class or both.
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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Tue 07 Mar 2017, 11:49:50

IMHO attitudes about race are primarily cultural, but with a large component of education or self-education. I was born in Illinois, North of the Mason-Dixon line. I was raised in North Carolina, Louisiana, Illinois, Virginia, and Guam. My parents were both Southerners, Dad a farm boy from Oklahoma and Mom a farm girl from Arkansas. We lived in segregated white neighborhoods, and I attended segregated schools, or as was the case in Illinois, in a town that did not have a single non-white face in over 5500 people.

I was the oldest of six kids, and the only one in a family of eight who was not to some degree a racist. The reason was simple. Somebody gifted me at the age of eight with a set of Mark Twain's novels. I saw the B&W 1930 version of Tom Sawyer on TV, and then I read the book. Then I read all of Twain's novels, and the one that marked my soul at the age of 10, after numerous attempts to read and understand what was not after all a children's book, was the novel The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.

Then I got exposed to all those attitudes about race, everywhere we lived. Dad had joined the Merchant Marine at age 15, during WW2. Mom had joined the Army and was a clerk/typist during the Korean War. Dad ended up as a career USCG officer and Mom raised all six kids as her primary job. We were living in Manassas, VA during MLK's famous Civil Rights march, and I saw all of the Civil Rights movement on TV during the taught tension of the Cold War. Then I served during the Vietnam conflict, also in the USCG. Although Eisenhower had officially desegregated the military services in the 1950s and 1960s, it was not a thorough job. When I served, the USCG's cooks, aka "mess boys" were Filipino's at a ratio of 3:1. Most of the menial labor including janitorial duties were performed by minorities.

I saw the birth, life, and death of that racial policy called "affirmative action". One of the things that killed it was the 1994 publication of The Bell Curve: Intelligence and Class Structure in American Life by Political Scientist Charles A. Murray and Richard J. Herrnstein who was a Phd Psychologist.

The book was savaged by the Left, and unfortunately the respectable Herrnstein was dead right about the time the book was published, before he could defend his work. Charles Alan Murray is an American libertarian conservative political scientist, sociologist, author, and columnist. He became well known for his book Losing Ground: American Social Policy 1950–1980 (1984), which discussed the failure of the American welfare system, and disclosed that Liberal social policies were savagely oppressing minorities.

IMHO Murray failed to successfully defend the book that Herrnstein and himself had written. That work has subsequently been defended by others. It is notable that when the Human Genome Project was finished and all their data was placed online, that Herrnstein and Murray were vindicated, when intelligence was linked to genetic clusters which were after all created when human populations were isolated from one another. It should also be noted that the results of the HGP thoroughly debunked the long-standing "three races" classification used in Anthropology, and with that the notion that intelligence was related to skin color.

IMHO anybody who still expresses the opinion that Herrnstein and Murray are racists after the exhaustive debate and the successful defense of both the book and the HGP, has got a serious case of cranial-rectal inversion. That such people are by and large members of the political Left is because at that end of the ideological spectrum, beliefs trump reality.

Because here we are in 2017, and many colleges and universities still have affirmative action quotas based on the 400+ year old Anthropological definitions of race, and still with harmful welfare policies that are the next thing to genocidal. If you doubt that, try moving to and living in inner-city Detroit, or St. Louis, or Harlem, or Watts.
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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 07 Mar 2017, 15:23:03

Tanada wrote: Authoritarianism and toeing the professors line are what life on most University campuses is about.


This is correct but this was not the authoritarianism I was referring to. I am addressing the overwhelming trend, not just historically in the USA, but globally for that matter, in how higher education, in most cases, breaks the bondage of established conservative belief systems and opens up students to broader horizons of thought. The authoritarianism I refer to here is religious belief systems, patriarchy, traditional views of gender roles etc. Brainy kids who migrate to these higher learning institutions from the hinterlands tend to gravitate toward more progressive ideologies as a result of their exposure to higher education itself. The article was alluding to this in how students after graduation often go live in metropolitan areas and don't return to their rural towns and cities which causes the brain drain.

I am arguing that this cultural trend is not caused by ideological professors converting impressionable young minds over to leftest belief systems. It happens as a result of education itself and having your mind opened to a more pluralistic environment.

To your point, as much as professors engage in authoritarianism as you mentioned in defending their academic turf, the underlying cornerstone of higher education is to question your belief systems, question assumptions. It is natural for higher education to trend students from the hinterlands toward progressive liberalism once the often provincial, patriarchal, often religious, often conservative and even superstitious belief systems become exposed.

These are of course my humble opinions.
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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 07 Mar 2017, 17:24:03

There are now a raft of scientific studies showing that IQ is definitely mostly determined through inheritance albeit with a significant influence coming from environment. The authoritarian tendencies of those on the left today are clearly revealed by their violent opposition to science that they can't understand and accept. The liberals can censor and shout down and beat up people who believe in science but they can't change the scientific facts.

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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 07 Mar 2017, 19:48:05

Ibon wrote:
Tanada wrote: Authoritarianism and toeing the professors line are what life on most University campuses is about.


This is correct but this was not the authoritarianism I was referring to. I am addressing the overwhelming trend, not just historically in the USA, but globally for that matter, in how higher education, in most cases, breaks the bondage of established conservative belief systems and opens up students to broader horizons of thought. The authoritarianism I refer to here is religious belief systems, patriarchy, traditional views of gender roles etc. Brainy kids who migrate to these higher learning institutions from the hinterlands tend to gravitate toward more progressive ideologies as a result of their exposure to higher education itself. The article was alluding to this in how students after graduation often go live in metropolitan areas and don't return to their rural towns and cities which causes the brain drain.

I am arguing that this cultural trend is not caused by ideological professors converting impressionable young minds over to leftest belief systems. It happens as a result of education itself and having your mind opened to a more pluralistic environment.

To your point, as much as professors engage in authoritarianism as you mentioned in defending their academic turf, the underlying cornerstone of higher education is to question your belief systems, question assumptions. It is natural for higher education to trend students from the hinterlands toward progressive liberalism once the often provincial, patriarchal, often religious, often conservative and even superstitious belief systems become exposed.

These are of course my humble opinions.



Here is I believe the crux of our disagreement. Higher Education used to mean you should question all the assumptions you had inherited from your life experience up until the point where you attended University. You were then supposed to use those skills of questioning your assumptions to spend the rest of your life finding the truth behind the assumptions and hopefully teaching your own descendants and/or employees to do the same.

The modern University system in the USA and from what I have heard quite a few other places no longer teaches this sort of critical thinking skill where you evaluate the universe to determine the truth. Today you are told by the established professors what the truth is and that you should discard any ideas your parents or society taught you that violate what the professor says.

That is not learning to evaluate the world in an open 'progressive' way, that is just exchanging one set of rote belief structures for a different set of rote belief structures. Modern education no longer teaches life skills, and unless you are learning engineering or one of the hard sciences or mathematics your liberal arts education is now a swamp of professor says world views that you must parrot back with high accuracy to advance in your classes to pursue your degree.
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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 07 Mar 2017, 20:13:50

Ibon wrote:The vast majority however are lead by the leash of binary thinking and really really do love to join one camp or the other.

Where are you?


Plantagenet wrote:There are now a raft of scientific studies showing that IQ is definitely mostly determined through inheritance albeit with a significant influence coming from environment. The authoritarian tendencies of those on the left today are clearly revealed by their violent opposition to science that they can't understand and accept. The liberals can censor and shout down and beat up people who believe in science but they can't change the scientific facts.

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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 07 Mar 2017, 20:20:00

Tanada wrote:
That is not learning to evaluate the world in an open 'progressive' way, that is just exchanging one set of rote belief structures for a different set of rote belief structures. Modern education no longer teaches life skills, and unless you are learning engineering or one of the hard sciences or mathematics your liberal arts education is now a swamp of professor says world views that you must parrot back with high accuracy to advance in your classes to pursue your degree.


I am afraid you are right here. Which is what I was also alluding to on the above post which is worth repeating, especially for those dogmatically holding on to positions on the progressive left

Liberal progressive ideology might have its roots in the expansion of the intellectual mind that departs from provincial authoritarianism but today it suffers paradoxically the same fate that happens to any belief system. It gets weighed down by dogma. It has become a cultural orientation with a rigid set of rules that starts to imitate the very characteristics of the provincial authoritarianism if supposedly left behind. It has become a religion of sorts, with a politically correct set of right and wrong positions. These politically correct positions caused those violent protesters at Middleburry College in Vermont to block access to Charles Murray's talk as they did not have the integrity to go into the assembly and debate him intellectually.
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Re: From John Lennon to Charles Murray: We All Want to Chang

Unread postby aldente » Wed 08 Mar 2017, 02:02:20

did Subjectivist ever open a "forbidden clip" of Richard Carrier?
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